KAREN BREWSTER: (inaudible) WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: We called them qutli's (phonetic) and they -- there’s a lagoon over there by Kiligmiaq that they -- they spell it like Kotlik but it’s actually Kootlik.

The Russian that came across, that was before, you know, must’ve been three hundred years ago or so.

He spent -- he -- he built some kind of a shelter. He spent the winter there and then in the springtime the Noatak people used to come -- the lower Noatak -- they’d come over the mountain, go over to Rabbit Creek -- KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: They saw him, they couldn’t understand him, and they killed him. ANDY MAHONEY: Wow. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: And Sarah Evok told me where he was -- where he was buried, you know, but I never did try to get the exact location.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did the story ever tell about how he got over there? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Ice. Drifting ice. KAREN BREWSTER: He -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Drifted over to our side. ANDY MAHONEY: Hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, did he have to walk through the broken ice? Or -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: I don’t know, but he ended up over here on our side.

KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. I wonder if it ever happened the other way? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: I’ve heard of it. KAREN BREWSTER: You have? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: From Point Hope.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did the Point Hope person come back? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: I just heard about it. No, I don’t -- KAREN BREWSTER: You don’t know? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: I don’t think so. KAREN BREWSTER: They just -- they disappeared and -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. I’m sure Wales and Diomede, they probably drifted across in the -- long time ago. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: I don’t know, that current’s going back and forth, not going across.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, okay. But here it’s going across? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. Well, it -- different conditions. You know, it's not just straight. ANDY MAHONEY: Mm-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. It goes -- ANDY MAHONEY: Yup.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Interesting. But, yeah, I was thinking if long time ago, your father or grandfather’s time, did that happen a lot that people drifted out? Was that something people worried about? Do you know?

They ever talk about it? JOE HARRIS SR.: Not too much, I guess. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Not too much.

But everything they learned, they -- they -- they talked about what they’ve learned out in the ocean and what not to do. ANDY MAHONEY: Mm-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: When you’re out there.

This is where I made my mistake. Don’t do that. You know, one of those type of situations. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: So everybody knew what they were doing out there but there’s always a chance of somebody drifting out, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: But the thing is, you know, our people always said that if somebody got lost out there or -- or perished out there, don’t even look for them. You’re not going to find them. ANDY MAHONEY: Hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: Because -- the -- the -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: They won’t be found. KAREN BREWSTER: It’s too dangerous? Or they’ve gone wherever. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah, they won’t be found.

KAREN BREWSTER: But sometimes they did drift back around. It happens sometimes. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: I don’t know.

KAREN BREWSTER: I don’t know. So when you would listen to your grandfather and your fathers talk about what happened on the ice and this is what I did and don’t do it again, do you remember any of those stories? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: They tell us to watch out for certain things, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Do you remember what some of those things were? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: The wind, the currents, yeah. Ice conditions.

KAREN BREWSTER: What about -- what about rough ice? Does the ice out here ever get rough? You have to deal with that? JOE HARRIS SR.: You got to go around it. Got to look for a place to go around it when you’re traveling.

ANDY MAHONEY: Do you ever remember a time when people would say that it was -- it was just too rough. Like you couldn’t go around it. Like everywhere you went was rough?

Or is it generally you can -- you can find a way through? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: We talk amongst each other when we’re -- ANDY MAHONEY: Yeah.

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: -- when we used to hunt out there. We tell each other which way is the quickest way you can get out to the lead or which is the best -- ANDY MAHONEY: Mm-hm. WILLIE GOODWIN: Best road. Best trail.

ANDY MAHONEY: Do you -- have you ever had to -- to make a trail? Or have you always been able to find a trail? Have you ever had to break -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Never had to -- we never had to make a trail. JOE HARRIS SR.: We had -- we had to find, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: ‘Cause like in Barrow, yeah, they have to -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. They do that. JOE HARRIS SR.: There and Point Hope.

KAREN BREWSTER: Point Hope. But, here you’ve never had to do that? JOE HARRIS SR.: No.

KAREN BREWSTER: It was always -- you could always find a place? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah.

JOE HARRIS SR.: When it’s real rough, when the main ice over here it’s kind of smooth, you have to go around it and go back out to the lead some places. KAREN BREWSTER: So you can always --

JOE HARRIS SR.: Instead of trying to weave through that rough place.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you could always find a way, sometimes it was a little farther -- JOE HARRIS SR.: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- around? JOE HARRIS SR.: Yeah.

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: But nowadays, it’s different, too. Back then it’s -- with a dog team you can go up and over. JOE HARRIS SR.: Yeah. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: But now with snow machines, you -- KAREN BREWSTER: Really? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: You’d go up and over those ivus? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

ANDY MAHONEY: The dogs would be able to climb? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. ANDY MAHONEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: How big would those ivus get back in those days? JOE HARRIS SR.: Real big some of them. KAREN BREWSTER: Twenty feet? JOE HARRIS SR.: Way over -- KAREN BREWSTER: More?

JOE HARRIS SR.: High. They always be real high sometimes. Down there right -- right by -- by Sealing Point. I -- I think there’s some -- some again down there. It kinda shallow place where they pile up. Shallow place.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like the ice by Sealing Point maybe moves around a little bit more than in here? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Out, yeah, by the current but-- JOE HARRIS SR.: Yeah.

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: There’s some areas there close to the beach that it anchors into the ground. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, so -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: And that won’t -- JOE HARRIS SR.: Move ‘til that thaw out or something.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. But nowadays those ivus -- I mean, like when I look out there I don’t see anything that looks like you’ve had an ivu. JOE HARRIS SR.: Not very much --

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: We didn’t have a fall storm that will break it up -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. ANDY MAHONEY: Oh. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: This year. It just freezes shhh, pretty smooth. JOE HARRIS SR.: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And is that unusual? I don’t know if there’s unusual. JOE HARRIS SR.: It’s always like that. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. Unusual when we have ivus out here. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, really? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah.

JOE HARRIS SR.: Further out, though. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. JOE HARRIS SR.: Right by the mouth up there, maybe. Ivu. On shallow places.

KAREN BREWSTER: This year were there ivus way out there? No? JOE HARRIS SR.: I don’t know, we never --

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Out by the islands maybe, huh? JOE HARRIS SR.: Islands, maybe, yeah. Out there. Maybe by the islands. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: There's a couple islands out there. KAREN BREWSTER: By the islands. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: The channel that -- there's two of them.

KAREN BREWSTER: And I’ve heard that the seals like to use those ice piles for denning and having their pups. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. So if they are -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Close to the lead. Close to the lead. KAREN BREWSTER: Close to the lead, yeah. ANDY MAHONEY: Hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: So if there're no -- if there are fewer of those ivus, have you noticed fewer seals? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: I don’t know. KAREN BREWSTER: You don’t. Okay.

And is -- have thing -- we were talking about freeze-up before, is break-up different than it used to be? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: It’s earlier.

KAREN BREWSTER: It’s earlier. But it’s happening in the same way? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: With what -- with -- okay. Do you think it could ever happen that you’ll have no ice? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Probably some day.

KAREN BREWSTER: That no -- that the shorefast ice wouldn’t freeze up. Then what happens? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: You adapt to it. Our people have adapted to any kind of change that have ever come before us.

KAREN BREWSTER: That’s true. So how would you adapt? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: What do you mean?

KAREN BREWSTER: Like, you just use your boats all year ‘round? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Why not, if they’re there. No ice.

KAREN BREWSTER: No ice. But if there’s no ice does that mean no seals? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: I don’t know. There’s seals in Southeast where there’s no ice. ANDY MAHONEY: Mm-mm. KAREN BREWSTER: The seals would adapt, too. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: So --

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: I’m sure there’s going to be seals because the scientists have figured out that wherever a female seal is born, it’ll come back and have its young there. KAREN BREWSTER: Really? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Like salmon. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. ANDY MAHONEY: Mm-mm. KAREN BREWSTER: Interesting.

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: All these animals in the ocean, sea mammals, do that. They come back to where they’re born to have their young.

KAREN BREWSTER: Do you guys ever get walrus around here? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: When they come -- springtime when they’re moving, migrating.

ANDY MAHONEY: Do they come into the Sound? Or do they just -- they stay -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Out. Kinda far out, but we can smell them and hear them, too. ANDY MAHONEY: Oh, yeah, yeah. They smell. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Do they ever -- have they ever been hunted? I mean -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Not -- not really, huh? JOE HARRIS SR.: No.

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: They’re just, if we run into them, we’ll hunt them. If we don’t, we don’t. We don’t hunt -- we don’t go look for them -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: -- let me put it that way. ANDY MAHONEY: Mm.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. Yeah. The other question I have of -- is about multi-year ice. That glacier ice, fresh water ice. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Don’t have it anymore.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did you use to have it? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. Because it’d be blue. ANDY MAHONEY: Mm. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Long ago, when we were young, ah, Joe? JOE HARRIS SR.: Yeah. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: That’s that multi-year ice that came from up north. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. We can tell the difference right away. It’s blue. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And did it come in to the -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Not here, but out there. Out there in the Sound. JOE HARRIS SR.: Out -- out there. KAREN BREWSTER: By the lead? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Out there. Yeah.

Did you guys use it for drinking water? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. Yeah, I didn’t know if it came down this far. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: It did when -- when I was a kid, I remember seeing it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Do you guys call it piqaluyak? Piqaluyak? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: We don’t have -- we didn’t -- we don’t have a word for those -- their conditions up north. ANDY MAHONEY: Hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: So when you saw that blue ice, there’s no Iñupiaq word for that? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: I don’t remember anybody calling it a word.

JOE HARRIS SR.: Aiyulaq (phonetic). WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Huh? JOE HARRIS SR.: Aiyulaq (phonetic) or something. WILLE GOODWIN JR.: Aiyulaq (phonetic). JOE HARRIS SR.: That don’t melt, yeah. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: It don’t -- it don’t -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Aiyulaq (phonetic). WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Aiyulaq (phonetic). JOE HARRIS SR.: It don’t melt, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Cool. That’s interesting.

So you’d have to go out to the lead to -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: When we’re hunting ugruks in springtime. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. And --

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: It don’t happen in the wintertime. It’s in the springtime when we’re hunting.

JOE HARRIS SR.: Once in a while you see. Not all the time, though. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So it’s when the ice is moving around and it comes in? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: That was a long time ago.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah, well, that’s interesting. In Barrow, they say it doesn't come around anymore. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Sixty-some years ago. ANDY MAHONEY: Hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: So I was going to ask Joe, if you had a young man that wanted to learn about going out seal hunting and knowing how to be safe on the ice. What kind of things would you show him when you were out there teaching him? JOE HARRIS SR.: I don’t know. Just teach him just like the way -- They’d follow me all the time, maybe. They don’t even follow me when I -- when I go out there. Hardly. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

JOE HARRIS SR.: They have to go with somebody else to go hunt. They like to be out there alright, but they don’t really know what’s out there. They -- when they go out.

They like to boat around out there in the ice, alright. KAREN BREWSTER: But even boating around out there, you have to know what you’re doing. JOE HARRIS SR.: Yeah. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So what do you have to know? You have to know about what’s a good wind? How -- how do you boat out there and not get trapped? Or stuck. JOE HARRIS SR.: You got to watch. Got to watch, yeah. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Just gotta watch. Watch the weather, watch the -- everything all around you.

JOE HARRIS SR.: I don’t really go inside them real big ice when it’s open. Not too much. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah, we got to -- JOE HARRIS SR.: We gotta stay outside of those. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: The big cakes. We kinda -- KAREN BREWSTER: Stay away from those? JOE HARRIS SR.: Yeah. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. JOE HARRIS SR.: We always just --

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Especially when there’s two of them close together. KAREN BREWSTER: They might move to -- move together? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: They always drift. The ice is moving all the time. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. In the springtime --

JOE HARRIS SR.: Some boats always be closed in sometimes out there. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

JOE HARRIS SR.: When they don’t watch. And have to wait for how -- how long to -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: ‘Til it opens up.

KAREN BREWSTER: You have to wait for the wind and the current to move -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. JOE HARRIS SR.: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. But, yeah, I was thinking when you’re out on the ice for -- for natchiq on your way to the lead, do you stop along the way and look at things and you could teach somebody that?

What you would teach them to look for? JOE HARRIS SR.: Good ice, that’s all. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. And if we see a crack, we could tell them.

JOE HARRIS SR.: If we see the cracks we talk about. We always talk about cracks, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: How do you know if it’s a crack that’s okay to cross? JOE HARRIS SR.: There always be one big crack we used to have from all the way -- all the way down that way and one -- this side the lead.

It also flip and go back and -- ‘til the late spring, it always open up though.

KAREN BREWSTER: Good for me. I think, ooh, a crack, I don’t wanna go across that. But you guys do. You know it’s an okay crack to cross.

JOE HARRIS SR.: Get different right now, though. Just current. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. JOE HARRIS SR.: Lots of current has out there, I think. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: The thickness is different.

KAREN BREWSTER: So if it’s -- if it’s not windy and there’s not current, it’s okay to cross that crack? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: I don’t think I’d be thinking the same with a snowmachine. ANDY MAHONEY: Hm.

JOE HARRIS SR.: Not much right now. Try to go out with a snowmachine, yup. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. JOE HARRIS SR.: Some do, I guess, around here. Maybe Ross Schaeffer and -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. JOE HARRIS SR.: (inaudible)

KAREN BREWSTER: And so, yeah, right now, are people still going out by snowmachine on that ice? JOE HARRIS SR.: If they -- Yeah, they can go out, I guess. It’s always be good out there than over here. This one always get so wet over here, springtime. And that wat -- creeks go out.

KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. Yeah, I look at that ice and I go "iiqinii," I’m not -- It looks scary to me, because I don’t know what I’m doing. So --

JOE HARRIS SR.: John, me, and Douglas, and Leo Ferro (sp?) one time we were out there with dogteam, late spring. And we st -- when -- when they had that money for the -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Oh, bounty? JOE HARRIS SR.: Yeah, bounty. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. JOE HARRIS SR.: For seals. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: For seals right here. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

JOE HARRIS SR.: Try to get the bounty and we stayed out there little too long, I guess. Start going home, we have to camp right out there by the islands.

Our dogs couldn’t go no more on that water on top of the ice.

After we camp, we made it across over here someplace. And they take us in with boat.

That next morning, that ice -- That same night, ice go out. ANDY MAHONEY: Oh, wow. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

JOE HARRIS SR.: We could’ve made it through out, there, though. Probably Cape Blossom or someplace, I guess. ANDY MAHONEY: Hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

ANDY MAHONEY: Did you think at the time that you were out there late? Did you -- did you think what you were doing was a bit dangerous? Or was it sort of a surprise to you that the ice went out?

JOE HARRIS SR.: I don’t know what we were doing. We try to get -- just trying to make a little money trying to get seals. ANDY MAHONEY: Right, right. JOE HARRIS SR.: That's why we went out there, so long.

KAREN BREWSTER: What time of year was that? May? This time of year? JOE HARRIS SR.: May, yeah, about last part. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

JOE HARRIS SR.: Middle part, someplace around there. Last part. It -- we used -- we used a dogteam ‘til June across there. ANDY MAHONEY: Hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. Yeah, so -- JOE HARRIS SR.: Before. Right now, you -- you can’t.

KAREN BREWSTER: So it seemed normal to be out there? JOE HARRIS SR.: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. I was wondering about that sikuliaq. You ever been on it where it moves under you? JOE HARRIS SR.: Some places, yeah. When it -- Falltime there were bunch of us out there with snow -- when we first get snowmachines. ANDY MAHONEY: Mm.

JOE HARRIS SR.: We were out there. They followed me one time. They said I was going like this on that thin ice. ANDY MAHONEY: Mm.

JOE HARRIS SR.: But it was cold, you know. It don’t break. That ice don’t break. That sea ice don’t break, just like fresh water ice. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: It’s rubbery. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. JOE HARRIS SR.: Rubbery, yeah.

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: We wouldn’t do that out here in fresh water.

KAREN BREWSTER: No. That’s why I was asking whether you -- Because I know that the sea ice -- And then, there’s that -- Qinu. That’s not qinu, is it? That new ice, qinu? JOE HARRIS SR.: Sikuliaq. We call that -- WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Sikuliaq. JOE HARRIS SR.: We call it sikuliaq, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Sikuliaq. And then there’s that kind --

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: When it qinu is when it got -- in the falltime when the ice in front -- I mean, from the rivers here. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, okay.

WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: On the -- on the beach. That’s what we call qinu. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s what you call qinu.

And is it thin? JOE HARRIS SR.: Mm-hm. WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah, it’s just freezing. Just starting. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it's just freezing. So, that’s thinner than sikuliaq? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

And then there’s that ice that’s like -- in English they call it grease ice. It’s like real slushy and it’s almost like the waves are thick. I don’t know what it’s called in Iñupiaq.

When it’s just forming, but it hasn’t come together. Do you know what I mean? No? I don't know how you explain grease ice.

JOE HARRIS SR.: Qinumun (phonetic)? KAREN BREWSTER: Maybe that’s the qinu? ANDY MAHONEY: Hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Maybe that’s the qinu? ANDY MAHONEY: Yeah, maybe.

KAREN BREWSTER: The other thing I’ve -- Well, Cyrus talked about it that the water builds up, or when it’s snowing it creates like a berm of snow and ice like a edge.

Do you know what that is, have you seen that? When the falltime -- when it’s freezing and the water keeps piling up. No? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Maybe across there. KAREN BREWSTER: Maybe. Okay.

ANDY MAHONEY: I don’t have anything new. We’ve covered a lot of ground, a lot of ice.

KAREN BREWSTER: If there’s anything else that -- When I asked you, I wanted to talk about ice, was there any story you had in mind that we haven’t talked about? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Ice is ice.

KAREN BREWSTER: But we know that’s not true. Ice is more than just ice, it’s -- different times of year, different colors, different textures. That’s what’s so interesting, I think.

Okay? WILLIE GOODWIN JR.: Okay. KAREN BREWSTER: Tav -- tavra. JOE HARRIS SR.: Mm.