KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. This is Karen Brewster, and today is February 24, 2022, and I’m here with Delois Burggraf once again in her home in Fairbanks to finish up our conversation about the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act and her role and what was going on in that time and since.

So thank you, Delois, for letting me come and visit again. It’s always such fun.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, you’ve been here long enough where I’ve forgot what I’ve told you, and I don’t know what I’ve left out.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I do have some notes on what we’ve talked about. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Good. Ok. KAREN BREWSTER: Um, and uh, so I have some sort of follow-up questions, and we’ll just go where we go.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, let’s go through your notes. KAREN BREWSTER: And I can’t tell you what you haven’t told me. DELOIS BURGGRAF: All right. KAREN BREWSTER: That I don’t know. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. KAREN BREWSTER: But, um --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause I do know definitely, like I know we have not got into Wilma (Ketzler). KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And we have not talked about the injunction, when we filed the injunction. KAREN BREWSTER: No. Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: So Wilma and injunction. But I would like to just -- off tape you were telling me a little bit about your father, Charlie Purvis. And we have talked about him and his role.

Uh, but a little bit more about -- you mentioned as a carpenter, he used that platform for some --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The carpenters’ union was -- Oh, number one, I want to tell you how he become a carpenter.

Because Charlie Purvis was, as far as the US government is concerned, cannon fodder. He’s one of these country boys, and most of them all over the Midwest only had about fifth grades of schooling. And that’s what he had. Five years of schooling.

Because most men, fathers, had sons. They had their farm, and the farms needed work. And you needed to know all of the various work that you needed to know to run a farm year-round. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause it was not like a factory where you stood there and did the same thing. Every day you had the same thing.

But every day, you also had things that had to be done that day in preparation for the week ahead that you had to do, once a year.

And then, you know, that would lead to the next thing that you had to do by that time, once a year. But if you don’t do ’em in a timely fashion, you lose!

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: These are timely things. KAREN BREWSTER: Very seasonal.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And you have to know how. It’s seasonal, and there’s differences and variations throughout the year. And timing is of essence, ’cause you’re working with a power that no man is in charge.

If you don’t listen to it, when the timing to plant, you know, you’re not going to have a harvest. And if you start planting at harvest time, it ain’t gonna work. It ain’t gonna have harvest. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, all of these are laws and rules. And survival.

And it was more important -- it was good to get the essentials of book learning, go there, ok. Yeah, you go there. I’ll let you get off of school. You go there and learn to read and write, but then ok, he knows how to read and write, and he needs to learn how to work. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Real work. Not, you know. Ok. And that, the US was full of those kind of men. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the US Army loved ’em. And one of the most cleverest ones was a man that made history, which we don’t even know about him.

But this was World War I -- well, anyway, Sergeant York was one of those kind of men. Sergeant York captured three hundred and some-odd Germans singlehandedly. Ok? KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And it just blew everybody’s mind, ’cause here’s this little old hillbilly. You know, I think he’s eastern more hillbilly than the Midwest, you know. Kentucky, maybe somewhere. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Anyway, um, he comes with this, you know, German army that he captured. You know, 300 men by himself, and they -- he asked ’em, "Well, how do you do it?" He says, "Well, it's just like hunting turkeys." You shoot the -- the tom, the leading tom, and the rest don’t know what to do.

And, of course, that to me, is exactly my dad. He knew the world of the -- you know, um, animals, you know, and their characteristics and behavior, and he -- he lov -- he'd study that, what led ’em, what their -- you know. And then he would know where the target was, ok?

And that just -- when I heard about Sergeant York much later, you know, ’cause I was too young. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: When it -- he first did it, but I -- I’s just the epitome of the men that Charlie was.

They were very logical, observant, and they understood looking for the dynamic. Who was in charge, ok. They were astute. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Today’s people are not astute. They’re clueless. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They don’t even know what to begin to ascertain.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So then how did Charlie transfer that into becoming a carpenter?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, in that world that he grew up in, it wasn’t worth a bucket of spit in the city, because it got transformed. And, you know, you had to go to the city. Well, in the city, he was worthless. You know, he didn’t know the terminology of the city.

He ended up a bellboy. Then when he was a young man, he ended up pregnant, ie., he got a little lady pregnant, and then, oh my god, that is time to head to California. Get out of Kansas City. Oh my god. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: There’s no way --

KAREN BREWSTER: The scandal.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: A twenty -- nineteen, twenty-year-old man was ready to be a father and a husband, you know.

And then he had a horrible moral conscience, he claims, one night, because there was -- it sounds to me kind of like Jacob and the angel, as far as the way it was described to me.

He had this moral conscience that says, you know you are responsible for this baby as much as she is. So he had to entertain a proposal of marriage to legitimate and secure my interests and hers.

Otherwise, she would’ve been discarded in that culture, because she would’ve been a woman pregnant. KAREN BREWSTER: Single woman. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Without marriage. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Which would put her life in jeopardy, as well as mine. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And in that culture, and in those regions, were remote farmhouses all over. Every county had at least one where women who found themselves pregnant --

And once they realized it -- ’cause by then it took about four months in those days. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Before you knew you were pregnant. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, she missed periods, but you hoped the next period, you know? KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Then you'd know you were pregnant. And you would have to discreetly find one of these places and have a baby and leave it. And then go back and say you were visiting a cousin. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And god only knows what happens to -- undocumented. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: We have no idea.

And that’s where I would’ve been. And God only knows what’s the rest of that story. Well, it was a hard story anyway. KAREN BREWSTER: So he came back?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he proposed marriage. She was five months pregnant. And four months later, they have a baby, ready or not. And he has very limited skills for that world.

Now her, she was a little more knowledgeable because at 13, she’d been sent to the city to live with a family as a maid in a certain sense, but with the provision that she’d be allowed to go to high school.

So during the day, she was in school, but at night she was helping them with the cooking and the cleaning when she got out of school. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, the kitchen, and putting children to bed.

But she was allowed the one day a week off. One day a week. Unfortunately, because that’s where she met Charlie.

KAREN BREWSTER: And your mother’s name was?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because she met his sister first. And his sister was a maid. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And these two little maids met up in a park, and then the visiting brother was visiting the sister, and the rest is history. And now we have what we have.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And your mother’s first name was Dorothea? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Dorothea. Right. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And anyhow, I mean, her family was not impressed. He was landless. They had land. You’re supposed to marry up in that world, not marry down. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And in that world, she married down. Ok. Now the good news is, he wasn’t a black man, ok. KAREN BREWSTER: In that world? DELOIS BURGGRAF: In that world.

But a poor farmer with no land was just -- you know, anyhow. To make a long story short, none of them, none of the family was too impressed.

And anyway, they were on their own, and so it was very difficult for both of them. There was a point in time when I think I’m about two years old or something, that she had to go back to the farm, which she hated going back.

’Cause she and -- she did not like her father. I mean, she’s very alienated from the father. Very cruel.

Those Missouri men. Some of them were horrid. Horrid, horrid. If you want to know more detail about Missouri men, just go to Joyce Meyers, you know.

I mean, like I say, it -- the culture out there was very -- the men -- like I say, in that world, in that Midwest.

Now, my dad had a culture. He come from a culture, which is not common, but you never hit a woman. You never hit a woman. If a man was seen striking a woman in my dad’s culture, they would’ve lost the status of man.

However, they were aware of a farmer who was a well-off farmer who really brutalized his wife and children. And I asked my dad about that. I -- "Now, you guys knew about it."

Like, for instance, his dad’s uncle heard the -- a woman screaming, and, of course, he lived near the farm of the wealthy man. And this woman’s voice is screaming and screaming, so he went and inquired what. That man had tied his wife by the hair, long hair, and had her hanging in a well. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh my god!

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. Um-hm. And so, he retrieved her, saved her life.

And uh, they also had -- at some point, they had a little teenage daughter that, I guess, got interested in maybe the guy next door or something. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: So they built a cage to put her in and keep her in.

KAREN BREWSTER: It’s a horrible time period. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, it’s life. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In the country of the US. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It was a life of a woman. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And my mom lived it in her dad’s world. And my dad lived in that world, but his mom was not, and his sisters were not, but he was beaten. It’s ok to beat your sons. Make a man of them.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. It’s a fricken’ hard, brutal world that your history books don’t tell you the truth. Ok?

And, you know, and they were good people. They come from Europe, which was a brutal world. There’s no getting around, Europe was brutal. That’s why they wanted out. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But they brought it with them. They brought it with them.

KAREN BREWSTER: It’s generational trauma. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well. KAREN BREWSTER: Which, as we know, is still going on in Alaska.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It ain’t over yet. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It ain’t over yet.

KAREN BREWSTER: So I’m going to try and get us back to Alaska and -- ELOIS BURGGRAF: And so, anyway -- KAREN BREWSTER: -- land claims.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That is where this man come from. And like I say, then World War II came. He had three children. He got drafted, which is another way to spell slavery. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok? KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. So he’s drafted. And he knew that he and their law, he was exempt because he had three children. They targeted, you know, usually single men and then they built whatever the status was.

Well, anyway, um, you know, then he learned there’s a joker in the law.

So anyway, he got drafted and was told to report -- He’s in Kansas City. Told to report to Lawrence, Kansas, for -- I think the word’s induction? KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. And um, he knew as a young, healthy farm boy, that he’d pass. And he assumed he’d have two weeks to get his affairs in order. That was customary.

And so, he went to Lawrence and reported. He was thrown in a back room, shaved from head to toe, thrown in a boxcar with a bunch of other men, was not allowed to contact his family. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No one.

Until he had a speeded up mil -- What do you call it? Basic training is usually six weeks. They did an accelerated basic training of three weeks. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then he was allowed to contact his family. And then thrown on a troop ship, sent to the Pacific.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And I know we’ve talked -- In previous interviews, you talked about his experiences in the war that influenced his decisions.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And like I say, whatever he observed, you know, from that experience. He’s in occupied Japan and then sent to the Philippines, and then --

KAREN BREWSTER: And that that influenced his decisions to come to Alaska.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, like I say, after -- I do not know what it precisely was, but after that, he never trusted the US government again. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He had difficulty when he came back to Kansas City with -- Like I say, I'm -- I'm just knowing he couldn’t stand to be around people. He -- he was very troubled.

And so, he got out of the city and got a little piece of property, of 80 acres that nobody wanted. ’Cause it was -- it was hilly.

Let’s see, is 80 acres, but only 40 of it was still, like timber or rocks. The other 40 acres had 20 acres of bottom land, but bottom land floods. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You have good bottom land, but about every one out of three years, it’s going to flood if you plant a crop.

And then the other 20 acres was poor land, been overworked, was -- wouldn’t even grow weeds. And it was, of course, vulnerable to gullies, and, of course, that’s one of the first things he did is to fix that land so it wouldn’t make gullies. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then he -- he was -- I don’t know how to put it. He knew about building the land up. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And anyway, he had no money. He out of World War II. And he got that land, which I’m sure was on payment ’cause nobody else wanted it.

And I know he did payments, ’cause I know he didn’t pay cash for it. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I know that he cleverly -- I can’t get over how clever he was, at knowing how and what to get to sustain life. ’Cause he had no money.

Got a couple of goats. You got milk. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You got some chickens, about half a dozen little chickens. KAREN BREWSTER: Eggs? DELOIS BURGGRAF: You had eggs.

And then, at some point, you maybe find somebody that has an old cow for twenty-five bucks and you got cow. And then, at point, like I say, we were able to have milk and cow and, you know, after nine months, we had a calf. We had meat. A calf was born, and we butchered it young. We had meat.

And, of course, goats have babies twice a year. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And it's a buck, that’s meat.

And then rabbits, you know, raising rabbits. We had meat, we had milk, we had eggs.

I walked three miles to school. He had that jeep. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That World War II jeep, with no sides. It was a canvas top. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No sides.

And, of course, this woman who hated the farm. And by that time had three children, and did not know how to drive, and he had to teach her how to drive. And she was not -- she didn’t take to it naturally.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and a jeep is a little harder to drive than -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, it's stick shift -- KAREN BREWSTER: -- a car where you have -- yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- and all those days. And anyway, she did not take to it naturally.

And anyway, to make a long story short, I learned to drive by watching him teach her. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so, by nine years old, I am being sent over to go over to the other farm a mile away and do whatever they'd -- errand they wanted, you know, needed to be done, and drive back.

And, you know, like I say, you become a farm hand. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And because my mom, she come from farm world, too, but in my mom’s farm world, women were not allowed near the barn or the barnyard. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They were only in the house. Least they see an animal copulate. They were not to know about these things. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I was not to know about these things. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And for her to have me knowing about these things, really difficult for her, culturally. Very difficult.

I come running in one time because a cow, she had been brought in. Because a cow -- animals, if they can, they’ll have their babies by themself. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Dad had been watching her, ’cause he knew it was time for her to calve. And it was late fall, and he didn’t want her to calve out alone.

And anyhow, he had her in the barn ’cause he knew her time was near. And I was down in the barn, kinda hanging out as a kid ’cause you’re isolated on a farm.

I was the only one that age. The other two sisters were much younger. They’re in the house. And they were still toddlers.

And so, I’m in the cow -- you know, in the barn hanging out with the cow, and kind of aware of her. And she’s aware of me.

And at some point, she got up, and she made a "HRRRUUUH" sound. And I ran up to the house, and "Dad! Dad! Bossy’s gonna have her calf. Bossy’s gonna have her calf. Can I watch? Can I watch?"

And Mom, "No, no. No!" You know, "Leave her. You stay away." And Dad said, "It’s all right, you can go." And oh my god, it was so powerful.

KAREN BREWSTER: How exciting.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh my god, I mean, to this day in the bottom of my gut, I’m so grateful. And that’s the way -- the difference between those two was so different. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And it was so hard for them to, you know -- And, of course, I’m in the middle of this cultural conflict, ok.

And um, so anyhow, it really separated me from my mom.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, well, it sounds like, yeah, especially once you moved to Alaska, you took to life in the woods and -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- the trapline? DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, it fi -- hand in a glove. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, you were -- you followed your dad.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But I knew was irrelevant. I knew about Leghorns and Rhode Island Reds and -- KAREN BREWSTER: Chickens. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- you know, all of that.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, but you took to the life here that your dad -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: But yeah, like I say, otherwise, it was so -- yeah, he knew how to hunt, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, I -- like I say, I come home from school. I was taught the .22. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I was to get two rabbits or two squirrels, and it kinda confused -- you know, it would -- ’cause I did. One time I got one rabbit and one squirrel.

And, anyway, the rules were, you get two of whatever the same. And I don’t know, I had to break the rule and boil them in the same pot. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I did. I did.

I wasn’t going to do two pots ’cause as soon as I got ’em peeled and put in the pot, I had to go milk the cows. You got to feed, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You gotta do the chores, you know.

And so anyhow, like I say, the -- so much, when I come into the Native world, I could relate to better than the white world. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the white world had a whole -- the rules -- my mom fit into the white world. And my mom adapted. And I mean, Alaska was salvation for her. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That world and little things called baby showers and, you know, stuff like that. Because she came pregnant.

And so, like I say, she -- the world fit. It -- it just, oh, it was -- it was a blessing for my mother. Alaska. It really was.

And the farm. Oh my god, she hated that farm. I mean, she hated farming. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, when she left, as a teenager, she never wanted to go back. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So then she had to go back. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Um.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And she had learned a lot of the new world of living in the city, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. Well, in one of the previous interviews, you know, you have talked about how Charlie got involved in land claims, and -- and his interest in equality, so we don’t have to go over that again. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. Ok.

KAREN BREWSTER: But I guess maybe your views on how -- him and then --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t -- wouldn’t call it equality. I would call it republic. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, explain that.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: A republic is where you’re equal under the law. Doesn’t mean you’re equal. Everybody had different abilities, but everybody, with your ability, you had the right to do the best you could, and you needed, and you got recognition for whatever your ability was.

Didn’t mean everybody had to be a rocket scientist to have value and respect. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That is the difference. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You did the best you could with what you had. You were to be respected. And in a lot of worlds, that don’t happen. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. And in the Native world, that was that way. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. You were respected.

You had the freedom to go out and make sled. Like I say, you could walk out, there’s the trees, whatever. You respect the land. You -- you know, bring back with your skill level, and whatever you did, it was to be respected. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because it was yours. And it was your tool, and it was to be respected, you know.

And like I say, I think that, too, is why Charlie was able to connect. Because he came two times before I did, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So he knew some people, and, you know, and learned. You know, like I say, when he come to Nenana, it'd been barely 50 years when the first --

Oh, I was going to bring you the picture of one of the men that was a young, five, six years old when the -- the first sternwheeler came. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Up the Tanana, yeah. And uh -- Yeah, I have a very little picture of him. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, fun. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But, you know. His name is Talbert John.

And anyhow, like I say, he knew these people and then when I came, these people liked to come and visit him, and then I would kind of tuck myself in a corner somewhere and just be quiet and listen. ’Cause he would always get them talking. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They talked. They’d come in and give him current information, current event information, you know. "Oh, did you hear Charlie, that so-and-so had a baby?" "No, they -- when did you?" You know, and did you hear, you know.

And then pretty soon, he’d get ’em talking about, "Well, how did you guys do this?" And how did -- you know. And anyway, I am just sitting here. That’s how I learned, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then I, of course, played with the -- my friends, which was their granddaughters, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I’m at their -- you know, their daughter’s house. And I’m, you know, we’re -- I’m -- they’re the mothers, but I’m playing with the kids, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So I’m weaving in and out. And like I say, that’s why I was at the potlatch when I heard Al Starr, you know.

Now, he wasn’t from Nenana. He came to Nenana after I’m there. I am still a kid, though. And um, maybe about three years after we came, he came.

And he was from, oh, Kantishna. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He came in from Kantishna.

His wife was from Minchumina. Different language group, but they all had nearly died out. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he was from Tanana, and I don’t know how he got settled in Kantishna for his --

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, if his wife was from Minchumina. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It’s near. KAREN BREWSTER: It’s close by, yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Close by.

And uh, anyhow, the reason they came in is because they had a family out there, and he wanted his kids -- the oldest one was 13. And then he had one, you know, it kind of staggered down.

And he wanted them to begin going to school. And the 13-year-old, of course, came into Nenana and had to be in the first grade. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. I mean, it was very hard on those kids. And really hard.

At some point, the -- Paul was the oldest son. And Paul gathered up his little siblings and put ’em on a sled and was heading back to Kantishna. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they headed him off because it was so hard. The culture shock and -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I’m sure. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, god. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, so anyhow, you know, I mean, it was a lot of my -- well, I had quite a few friends that never started first grade 'til the -- they were eight. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Now, Paul was the latest one I saw start first grade.

And so, I am with friends who had, you know, these real difficulties, you know, I mean, as far as adapting, like I’m adapting. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: We’re all cultural collision in a different form, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: We’re all trying to survive and -- and have some, oh god, camaraderie. You know, have a life. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, be kids and whatever and figure each other out, because we’re all different, you know. From -- for different reasons.

And some of them were a little more sophisticated. Some of the high school kids maybe done a year or so in Wrangell or Sitka, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause there was schools out there, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That some of them went to.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, ’cause at the time, there was not a high school in Nenana? DELOIS BURGGRAF: The -- most villages did not have a high school.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did the school in Nenana? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Nenana had a high school. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s why -- KAREN BREWSTER: ’Cause of the mission.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s why -- what you call it came, um, Al Starr. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Brought his kids. They had school, and I --

And by that time, the mission school had closed. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. I was thinking the mission school. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And it merged with the Nenana.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, I thought the mission school would’ve been up to high school. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No. KAREN BREWSTER: No? DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t think they did. KAREN BREWSTER: This was after, ok?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The Holy Cross (mission) did. KAREN BREWSTER: Yes. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Holy Cross had a high school.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. And I don’t know about that. ’Cause it had closed before I got there. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: About two years.

It closed during Dad’s time, ’cause when Dad was there, mission kids come into town, they call it. 'Cause the line was where the railroad tracks. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The mission was over here, railroad tracks, and then -- these were town kids.

Soon as mission kids crossed the railroad, town kids target them. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know. They’re the out -- you know, anyway. On the wrong side of the tracks. KAREN BREWSTER: Right, right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yes.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and the mission kids were a mixture. They weren’t necessarily from Nenana. They were from all over. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, it was a -- it was, yeah. Right. KAREN BREWSTER: They were from other -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. Right. Right. KAREN BREWSTER: -- parts of the Interior.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They were mostly Interior, but not all. There was a -- one of them I know for sure, she become my sister-in-law, was what is called, you know, the whites call Eskimo.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. She was Yup'ik, maybe?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh, she was Wales, from Nome. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. Iñupiaq DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: So I’m not quite sure what her -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, there’s different -- Ingalik and on the coast, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, they had different term. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So you mentioned --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I know Nunamiut was inland people.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. You mentioned an injunction. What was that?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, the injunction is way ahead of land claims is when -- oh boy, let me think. Ah, ok. Ok.

We had that little groups of people gathering, and then, you know, we’d had our first chiefs meeting. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, they had Iñupiat Paitot. They had a couple of meetings, well, three meetings in Nenana and then Tanana with the land issue. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And at some point in there, a letter was sent. Oh yeah, we got a petition. Got a petition. All of the Interior villages, uh --

you know, like I say, Al is, by that time, head of Tanana Chiefs, you know, in that role of -- Dena’ Nena’ Hanesh is the right word, but they couldn’t spell it or pronounce it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Pronounce it, so they changed it to -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: So the newspapers called it the Tanana Chiefs, yes. So that’s how it became that.

So anyway, got the petitions out, and they signed, asking the Secretary of Interior, which was Morris Udall, to create a land freeze because of this unresolved land claims.

And, of course, around that time, remember I told you how they got a letter back from the US denying that there were aboriginals, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: I don’t know if you told me that. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, anyway, they did. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They got a letter that there was no unresolved aboriginal issues in Alaska.

KAREN BREWSTER: So that was in response to this petition? DELOIS BURGGRAF: No. KAREN BREWSTER: That was before? DELOIS BURGGRAF: You let me finish. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. I told you about that letter. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That, you know, they got back that there were no unresolved aboriginal land claims in Alaska, and if they were, they would not do one of two things.

The reservation system, ’cause it was just pockets of poverty. And they would not do per capita settlements ’cause then they’d be accused of destroying the tribe.

And at this -- I’m guessing that that kind of response was at the same time of the petition for the land freeze. You know, that's -- those kinda happened at the same time, maybe in response to the same request. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But it -- it happened in that close enough. I don’t know if they were two separate letters that were sent, because that’s who we’re dealing with, the Department of Interior. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. In the meanwhile, like I say, the land freeze, Udall looked at it and put a land freeze. No more land selections in Alaska.

Which at that -- prior to that, the US had even imported people up here to apply for homesteads. They had been trying to, uh -- I know now what they were doing. They were trying to get some non-indigenous up here to stake claims to make it, you know. Ok. And they -- they wanted to build a state, ok.

Well, anyway, that’s when they imported the Palmer people and all of that story. Which, then of course, Palmer people got abandoned, too, by the US government.

And so anyway, we had the land freeze. Udall put a land freeze. Nobody could make any more claims.

So then the pipeline thing, you know, they want it to go along. And so, uh, then the oil companies at some point realized, well, I guess we better go talk to the Indians.

And so, they requested a meeting. And at that meeting, I forget where it was even held. Seems like it was, like, I don’t know, Tanana or Beaver or something. Al Ketzler’d have to remember that one. I don’t remember where it was held.

But the meeting was held, and the oil companies wanted them to give them permission for a right-of-way for that pipeline. And the indigenous response was, in return for contracts.

And there was agreement made that, ok, there would be contracts offered. The indigenous would get some.

KAREN BREWSTER: So contracts for work on the pipeline? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, you know, you need gravel. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You need, you know, whatever it was. Timbers. They needed timbers. They need --

You know, like I say, when you’re building a pipeline, there’s a lot of things you need. You gotta build a camp. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You gotta do a lot of things. Anyway, so the agreement was this contracts, and then they would issue the right-of-way. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So they issued the right-of-way on their word. On the oil companies’ word. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, of course, meanwhile, we’re still dealing with Congress to get the aboriginal land claims settlement anyway. And that’s during AFN (Alaska Federation of Natives) and Emil’s (Notti) administration. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. So all of that is going on. So, um, at some point, of course, they're really developing their offices in Anchorage and so forth and so on.

And Al, then, begins going to their offices to talk about contracts. And, you know, at first, they’re kind of civil, and, you know. "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep." You’re here to -- you know, right we need to get on this. Yeah, yeah.

And then, of course, the next time, he -- he -- "Well, we'll tell you what, you come next week and da-da-da." And then at some point, he realizes they’re putting him off, ok? KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And well, then they kind of, "Well, I don’t know where he is." You know, "I can’t talk to you now." You know, anyway, he is obviously being put in File 13.

And he come home, and he said, "Ok. We’ll file an injunction." Well, then we had to find a lawyer.

We go through. All the list of the lawyers were go in the phonebook. And well, this one won’t 'cause he wants a job on the pipeline. On the -- for the oil companies. He wants to get a job with the oil companies.

And this one has a job with the oil companies. And this one.

And we go down the list, and the only one that as a possibility was (Stanley) McCutcheon, because he had helped the Tyonek. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But, on the other hand, his hands were full. ’Cause we -- you know, there was kind of a word that, you know, I think he had figured he was maxed out, or whatever.

But, like I say, that was the only prospect. But it wasn’t certain, and I forget the precise reason.

I think maybe McCutcheon had maybe communicated he didn’t want to -- you know, I forget exactly why the hesitancy.

But anyway, going through all the list of these doggone lawyers, we knew they would not even want to touch for an unresolved aboriginal land claims, an injunction.

And Al is the one that, "Well, how about Legal Services?" Which had just been instituted. And I laughed, and I said, "Well, why not?" KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: What the heck? Got nothing to lose by trying.

So we, next day, get up and we trot downtown Anchorage, and there in the side street between 3rd and 4th is, on the side, you know, not this way and that way, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It was one of those little side -- those cubbyhole things. KAREN BREWSTER: Like an alley or something? DELOIS BURGGRAF: That are kind of longer than they are wide. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, was an office of Legal Services.

And we go in, and we meet the young man, and his name is Dave Wolf. And we, um, ask him, would you be interested in doing any legal work for Tanana Chiefs?

And he says, "Well, you know, our case load right now is just poor whites and poor blacks." And they didn’t have any Native issues, you know. "Why not?", he says.

And, you know, so in a way, that was kind of like, yes. Ok. You know, why not? You know, he didn’t say yes, but you know, it sounded like a yes.

"What do you want me to do?" "File an injunction on the pipeline." (laughter) And he agreed. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And we set the terms, ie, they will not talk to reporters. They always send whoever wants a question, they send it to us. He does the legal paperwork, but we do talking for ourselves. We were not asking for him to talk for us.

And they broke that rule one time only, and then, you know, Al confronted them, and that’s what -- that’s one of the right things we did. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah. And so anyhow, that’s how we got the land -- that filed. KAREN BREWSTER: So then what did that --?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And we won. KAREN BREWSTER: So what did that -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that stopped the pipeline.

It cost them millions of dollars. The contractors that the oil companies had. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They had spent millions of dollars, setting up camps, bringing men in, equipment, da-da-dah. Buying equipment.

They lost millions. And they blamed the Indians. Stupid people. The problem was the oil companies broke a deal. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that’s the ignorance that I cannot believe this white world has. KAREN BREWSTER: I know, it’s amazing.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, it blows my mind. These are educated, Harvard, Yale, and they tell me -- KAREN BREWSTER: It was about --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: What in the world? The Chamber of Commerce in this town organized, flew out to get Nixon to sign an illegal paper authorizing the land claims, even though the law said no.

KAREN BREWSTER: What was that?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, to file, you know, to -- to -- to go ahead and make it legal, which would’ve been illegal to -- to counter.

There’s three bodies of government: legislative, executive, administrative. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They wanted them to throw away the admin -- the legal leg of law in the coun -- land.

The Chamber of Commerce went out. They wanted Nixon to overrule. To, in other words, ignore the law and sign a piece of paper so they could -- the oil companies could go ahead and ignore the court. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The Chamber of Commerce of Alaska did that. I mean, I shouldn’t say -- of Fairbanks did. And Don Wright was on that flight.

KAREN BREWSTER: So this was after land claims had been signed? DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, sweetheart. KAREN BREWSTER: No, beforehand. DELOIS BURGGRAF: We don’t have a land claims yet. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: We don’t have a settlement.

KAREN BREWSTER: They were trying to -- they were trying to go around it, is what you’re saying? The oil companies --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, they had a deal with the Interior people. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They would give 'em a right-of-way. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And they violated that? DELOIS BURGGRAF: In return for contracts. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They’re not going to do that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They broke the deal. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They went ahead and were making the pipeline. Setting up camps. They were gonna -- they’re digging. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, they’re ignoring. Don’t you understand? KAREN BREWSTER: No, I do understand that. I'm unclear --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But -- but they didn’t have a contract and an agreement with the people that owned the land. KAREN BREWSTER: And they wanted --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You cannot go and make a pipeline on my land unless you have a deal with me. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. But -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: It’s that simple.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yes, and they wanted Nixon to -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: To -- KAREN BREWSTER: -- say that they -- what they did was ok? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah ever -- You know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, break the law is -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- is what they wanted. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. That’s the part I was clarifying.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, this is why I am so blown away. I mean, these are educated people. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, racism. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They ignore the law. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, hon, you have principled or you don’t have principled people. That’s the bottom line. If you don’t have principled people, what have you got? KAREN BREWSTER: I agree.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t understand any other way. I was raised by a hillbilly, ok? That’s my culture.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, they were out for the money. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I -- money god. The money god don’t get you anywhere. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

So the injunction stopped the work . DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: And then, those people who had the contracts?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And those people who had contracted with the oil companies blamed the Indians. KAREN BREWSTER: Right, and they --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: If they’d’a sued the doggone oil companies for breaking the deal with the Indians, they’d have got their money back. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm. But they didn’t? DELOIS BURGGRAF: No. KAREN BREWSTER: And so then --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t understand why they blamed the Indians. I don’t understand why they didn’t file a suit on the oil companies. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And get their money back.

I mean, this is what I don’t understand that ignorance. I never -- I mean, I didn’t finish high school, either. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, you know, what else is there to know? And if you have a college education and don’t know that, darling, then why go to college? KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, you know? What is going on?

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it’s basic human values.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, I don’t know what it is, hon. I don’t know what it is. To me, common sense is common sense.

KAREN BREWSTER: But so, then, did those contracts go to the Natives? DELOIS BURGGRAF: The land freeze. It was stopped. KAREN BREWSTER: The land freeze. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Until the settlement. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So that was what initiated the land freeze. Well, that’s very interesting. I didn’t know about that injunction. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Very interesting.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. It was very interesting times. Very interesting.

And then, ok, we won the injunction, and Al had to fly out. He was -- you know, it got filed, and then he had to fly out, because he’s also working for AFN at that time, doing two roles.

He’s working, you know, as the head of the Tanana Chiefs in securing the interests of the indigenous Interior, and then he had also to go sometimes to Washington, DC, ’cause he’s also working at AFN.

Because we had AFN, and there’s Emil (Notti) and (John) Borbridge, and oh, what do you call it, Willie Hensley, and -- You know, they were the heads of AFN. And at times, they couldn’t be there, and then Al would have to go, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, like I say, and then sometimes Al had to go down there because of Tanana Chiefs, so he’d be sometimes wearing AFN hat, and sometimes Tanana Chief hat.

And anyway, we got the injunction filed, and then the court upheld it. And Al was fly -- he was Outside.

And anyway, I’m in Anchorage, because I had two households. And I had to run the household up here in Alaska. KAREN BREWSTER: Fairbanks? DELOIS BURGGRAF: No. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Nenana. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Our home.

And, ’cause, you know, I have six children, and my mother-in-law. And the older kids did not want to go to Anchorage.

And so, anyway, we had to have a house in Anchorage, because I had to bring the younger kids with me so they could go to school.

And so anyway, we’re running two households, because we weren’t in Anchorage year-round. You know, so we’d try to come back for the summer to Nenana.

So we’re running two households, and, of course, limited funds. When you got six kids, you automatically have limited funds. And then you have on top of that two households. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so anyway, I also had a brother-in-law that was staying in the Nenana house, because, you know, the boys couldn’t be driving.

They -- you know, the boys that stayed in Nenana that didn’t want to go. They were teenagers, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Teenagers have to be where they belong, you know, as far as home. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Their home team.

And the younger ones were in the, oh, first-second-third-type grades, you know. So anyway, they got to be with the mom.

But the -- so I had a, you know, the brother-in-law is staying in that house, because he had to be a driver. And then, you know, his mom, my mother-in-law is, of course, doing the cooking and taking care of the boys. They’re her teenage -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And even though, they’re old enough to do cooking and stuff, but anyhow.

So we’re feeding four people, at least, there. And then, of course, we have the other. And then also, then, the -- the Anchorage house, when you have friends coming in from the village for a meeting or whatever, you have a houseful of people sleeping everywhere, you know.

You’re constantly having people fly in for meetings. They need a place. I mean, nobody had money. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know?

I mean, I don’t know how to put it. The -- Oh, it was so insane.

And well, like, you know, you have a house payment, you know, ’cause that Anchorage house, it costs so much per month for the payment. But I had to have another car. But the car required a payment. Well, then I wouldn’t have money to make the house payment.

And anyway, you know, you do this juggling. You go ahead and get the car ’cause you got to have a car. So there’s that money that belongs to the house payment is a down payment for the car so you can have wheels.

And then in the meanwhile, you’re forfeiting, you know, and you hope you can dig up, then, two payments. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: To make up for the house payment.

I mean, this constant juggling of money to pay that bill up there in Nenana, to pay -- you've got half a dozen kids always have needs. You know, oh my god, just oh my god.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. It’s amazing how you guys did that. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Just how -- Hon, the stress was horrible. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, it was horrible. And the meetings, they cost, too. You gotta go here, you know.

I mean, even when we lived in Nenana, they hold a meeting. They didn’t hold it in Nenana. They held ’em in -- we had to go. You know, all of that. All of the cost. And oh.

KAREN BREWSTER: And it all was out of your own pockets? DELOIS BURGGRAF: A lot of it -- Emil damn near starved. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s why his wife divorced him. I mean, it was horrible. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It was horrible.

KAREN BREWSTER: And, but you stayed around?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: After it was over, we were pretty broken. I mean, Al -- Al really, I mean, I don’t know how to put it. Well, both of us. I mean, we were very broken. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Very -- I mean, the stress.

KAREN BREWSTER: A lot of pressures on people.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, there’s nothing to catch you. It was like the war was over. But it was like Vietnam, nobody welcomed you home. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, and like all those trips to DC? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, god. KAREN BREWSTER: Those were paid for by AFN and TCC?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Sometimes. I’m not sure. You’d have to do more with Al with that. KAREN BREWSTER: I’ll talk to Al.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Some of that was out of our pockets. I know some of it may have been Association, but I’m not sure of that.

Because the Association of American (Indian) Affairs -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Really wanted to be careful and not ever be compromised as a, um, say, an outside funder.

Ok, you know how now, like, Trudeau (Justin Trudeau, prime minister of Canada) shut down any outside money for that group that’s doing the trucking thing? (truckers protesting Canada's Coronovirus vaccine requirements to cross the border) KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So he shut that money down, and now it -- the -- the -- oh, what do you call it? The, um, crowd funding problem is going away. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. Right. So -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- so the Association --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So like I say, they -- they were always very careful. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Not to be seen as -- oh, what would be the right term?

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, well as you say, being an outside funder. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, were they concerned about being involved as a political --? They wanted to be (inaudible).

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They were initially at first. There were some things, I’m sure, that was done that really was scary for them.

But I will tell you this. Bill Byler was such an excellent lobbyist, and he knew that world. He had worked prior to working for Association of American Indian Affairs, he had worked for some Senator. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I forget the details of that. So he knew that world. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And if you want to know another funny story, as far as funny. Oh, I tell you. I mean, I am a believer. I know there is a force. And this force has a funny sense of humor.

But that force allowed a young man named Willie Hensley to be ensnared by this little group that their purpose of their life is to go and make Christians out of people. That’s their purpose. That’s their culture, their belief. And they are diligent.

And I guess maybe in Kotzebue in those days, they’d all been caught, or whatever, but there weren’t a lot of them. But there was this little boy that basically kind of abandoned by mother and father, and I’m not talking for Willie, but yet he was being raised by a little old lady who was a grandma, I think. And maybe an uncle or two.

And you know, like I say, taken in and sheltered. And this little old lady made his boots and you know, took care of him. Made sure he had clothes and, you know, hand work, you know.

And so, course they’re living off the land, but then they'd come to town, and somehow Willie got acquainted. They lure the little kids in with food and games and whatever. And he agreed to go with them.

And he got on that plane, like he said, he never, ever expected to see his people again. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He was about twelve years old. I think he went and ended up in Tennessee, which he had no idea anymore about Tennessee than you would Uzbekistan. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok? But that’s what he did. He ended up out there. And then, he got transferred to some other, maybe a little economically better situation.

Ends up going to high school with Lynda Bird Johnson (daughter of President Lyndon Johnson) in this prestigious part of, I guess DC, or Maryland, or whatever back there in -- And he -- he -- he gets to know these kind of people. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then his education gets over. He goes back to Kotzebue, and he ends up at Wien. Wien Airlines.

As a -- what do they call it? Agent? KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Some kind of -- you know, where you, you know, if there’s freight, you gotta weigh the freight. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You gotta make sure the freight’s on the plane. If there’s a ticket, you sell the ticket. Ok. So he’s the agent for Wien Airlines.

And in the meanwhile, these crazy people down here who want to make that -- bomb a harbor.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, Project Chariot. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Project Chariot. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, of course, they -- LaVerne Madigan from Association goes up because Howard Rock was working at that time for -- at the Association of American Indian Affairs as a in-resident artist. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. That’s why he was in New York working at Association of American Indian Affairs under LaVerne Madigan’s administration.

And he gets this weird letter from his little friends and family in Point Hope in distress, saying, "You can -- Howard, can you help us? They want to bomb our harbor." KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: "With an atomic bomb. And we’re in trouble."

And LaVerne and Howard come to Barrow, and, of course, they talked to Point Hope people, too. And they run into, oh boy, I can’t imagine exactly what, but they create Iñupiat Paitot. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And at some point -- ’cause I don’t know exactly the details of this. I don’t know if it was Indian Rights Association, the Fairbanks branch of the Indian Rights Association, which is the one Charlie formed. That local little -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- people interested in land rights, ok. Here in Fairbanks.

I think it was them, and I know Charlie went to that meeting, the Iñupiat Paitot meeting. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they’re talking land issues, law, in Kotzebue. And this little agent that worked for Wien Airlines sat in on part of it. Ok? Now, Dad met him. He knew his name was Willie Hensley.

And Dad was very happy to notice that this young man did have an ear on the meeting. He didn’t express any opinion, but he -- Dad noticed he was.

Well, that same young man decided to go to the university. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, I don’t know if he had her as a professor, but Kay Hitchcock, ok? KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Who was turning into a professor so she can get an education to support her teenage child and herself, because she become widowed. Anyway, there’s -- they connect.

And then at the same time, this carpenter friend from Kotzebue goes to Willie and says, "Willie, you -- we’ve got to do something. We’ve got to write letters." Well, and he -- and he offered -- he gave money to Willie for postage to get letters written to let people know about the land issue.

Now this man was a carpenter, and I know the man. I met him. But I can’t remember his name.

KAREN BREWSTER: And he was from Kotzebue?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he was from Kotzebue, but he was a carpenter’s union, where my dad.

And carpenter's union, like I say, that nest is what we were beginning to talk about. That little nest is where Charlie was.

And I could -- I forgot even to tell you how Charlie -- that’s when I started telling you about the hillbilly. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I was going to tell you how he turned into a carpenter is because of Bill Beltz. Bill Beltz was a man who was to, um, administer the test to -- if you passed the test with the carpenter skill-based stuff, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You could become a carpenter, a member of the union, ok.

And this Bill Beltz was a man who administered that test. I think that Bill Beltz was from Kotzebue.

KAREN BREWSTER: Or Nome? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Or maybe? Maybe Nome KAREN BREWSTER: Beltz, ’cause it’s Beltz. DELOIS BURGGRAF: B-E-L-Z. KAREN BREWSTER: Not B-E-L-T-Z? DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t thin -- I --

KAREN BREWSTER: ’Cause the high school in Nome, I think, is the Beltz High School. That’s why I’m wondering if it’s a Nome name. (The Nome-Beltz Middle High School is named for William E. Beltz who was born in 1912 near Haycock on the Seward Peninsula, and was a carpenter, president of the Alaska Council of Carpenters, an early Alaska Native politician who worked to improve the unequal treatment of Alaska Native people, and in 1958 was elected president of the first senate of the State of Alaska. He died in 1960. So this is probably the same person Delois is talking about.)

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I might be wrong in the spelling and might have assumed.

KAREN BREWSTER: I might be wrong. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I do it -- yeah. I -- There could be the two different families. There could be the one. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But I do know my -- KAREN BREWSTER: Anyway. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- dad treasured that man because -- And my dad’s world was cruel. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: When you get -- somebody gave you a test, and you didn’t put the comma right or the period right, it was wrong. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Dad brought another man to -- I don’t know how in Nenana he heard about this opportunity to take a test, and if you passed, you would have the status probably of apprentice carpenter. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I mean, I’m young. I’m probably still living with my dad when that happened. I’m not married, yet, I don’t think.

I’m not quite sure, 'cause I got married at 16. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: So, but anyway, it was in that -- before land claims.

And anyway, I know another man that came up. Dad told him about it. "Hey, they’re giving these tests. Why don’t we go up and take the test, and maybe we can get this status of carpenter."

Um, and his name was Al John. Al John and my dad, and I don’t -- I’m not positive, but I think there was a third one, and I can’t think of who it would’ve been. But they came up for that test.

And this Bill Beltz administered the test. And he, for my dad, was a blessing, because I know Al had a problem or two with, you know, one or two questions. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And my dad apparently had a problem or two.

But Bill came over, and he looked at the question. He noticed, you know, ok. They -- they -- and he said, "You know the answer to this." And then he kinda rephrased it in a different -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then the "a-ha" comes. And instead he could’ve had the power to, you didn’t pass. You know what I mean?

That’s my dad’s world. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: The cruel, you’re stupid, get out of here. You know what I mean? KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But Bill Beltz was a whole different person. And, "Oh, you know the answer to that."

And, of course, they passed. They passed.

He did not give it to them. He just rephrased it. They got the connection. They get the right answer. They passed. They become carpenters.

That’s how my dad became a carpenter. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Cool. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. From that man.

And my dad was always grateful for that. I mean, I wouldn’t know the story, you know? KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And in the meanwhile, from that carpenter nest, which must’ve had Bill Beltz giving this test. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: There were a lot of Natives and Dad.

I was even going to ask Al Woods. I don’t know, would you want to talk to a man named Al Woods, who remembers, and talked to me about how he knows my dad. Now, he’s Native. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he is -- how my dad how used to try to get him interested in it. And he’s kind of guilty, now, because he didn’t. You know what I mean? KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But he owned it to me. He -- oh your -- "Oh, your dad used to try to talk to me. And he talked --"

And I, well, maybe I oughta ask you if you’d want to talk to him. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, maybe. Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, because this Charlie was -- I mean, hon, he must have irritated a lot of people.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it would be maybe interesting to talk to Al Woods about why he didn’t get involved.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that’s -- you know, whatever. I mean, he was a young man of the time. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah

KAREN BREWSTER: That here we are talking to all of you who were so involved in land claims. Well, here’s somebody who said no, I’m not interested.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. He was having too much fun making money. KAREN BREWSTER: Maybe? DELOIS BURGGRAF: And spending it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Or he didn’t have the personality. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s my thing. You know. KAREN BREWSTER: You know. Yeah, and -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s what a lot of them. KAREN BREWSTER: -- and nom -- not everybody wants to be an activist. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Hm-um. Hm-um. KAREN BREWSTER: They want to be behind the scenes.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I’ll tell you the truth, the Native culture, confronting is not -- KAREN BREWSTER: No. I know. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, it’s not -- yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And that’s why land claims is so interesting, in a way, that the Native community, who speaking out -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: It's a -- Culturally, is not, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And being out there in the front lines and all that is -- is not typical in the Native community in the past. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well.

KAREN BREWSTER: So the strength to be those leaders must -- and young. They were so young. Amazing.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, I know it. I know it. And the irony is, one of the men, oh god, that -- Dad and him -- ’cause it took this man quite a while to get the concept. His name is Nick Gray.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ah, yes. I was going to ask you about Nick Gray. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He -- he was one of those carpenters. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. And he was half Jew and half Iñupiaq. And, of course, he called himself a Jewskimo.

And him and Charlie would argue and argue and argue. But, then at some point -- and you know, I had the same difficult with my little Wilma. It took me two years before the "aha!" Ah.

KAREN BREWSTER: For her to get the "aha?"

DELOIS BURGGRAF: For her to get the "aha." It took me two years.

And then, it was hand in glove. We were like bread dough we could take and shape. And it was -- Anyway.

KAREN BREWSTER: So Nick Gray.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I’m getting ahead. But anyway, that is Nick Gray was one of that group, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so your dad helped convince Nick Gray to get involved?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, I don’t know if he helped him to get involved, but he got him to see the concept, and once he got the concept, he become the missionary.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah, he was very involved.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he went to Cook Inlet. And, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, didn’t Nick Gray also do stuff with the Arctic Slope or with Fairbanks Native Association (FNA)?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I’m not sure about FNA or Arctic Slope. I’m not sure even where he’s from. KAREN BREWSTER: No, I don’t remember.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Where was he from? KAREN BREWSTER: That I don’t remember. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t even know.

KAREN BREWSTER: But I know he was part Iñupiaq. Um, let’s see if I have it written down. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t know where he was from.

KAREN BREWSTER: But I know he was involved in Cook Inlet Native Association. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: But he was doing something before that. But he was here in Fairbanks, obviously, since your dad --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. He -- he start -- you know, and again, I -- you know, like I say, it might’ve been he took the test from Will Beltz, too. You know what I mean?

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Well, I just noticed something in my notes here ’cause we talked about Iñupiat Paitot which was in November 1961 and the Dena’ Nena’ Henash was in ’62. But there was a Kotzebue Conference on Native Rights, October 1962.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that, I don’t know. I was not there. But I -- (Bill) Byler was there.

KAREN BREWSTER: But I’m wondering if that’s how Willie got involved?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, Willie was at that Iñupiat Paitot. But I -- And then he went to the college. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then that carpenter came to him, ’cause we’ve got to write letters. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I don’t know the rest of the story. I don’t know.

KAREN BREWSTER: I know Willie’s story is -- is well told. Um, but you did mention, um, the Alaska Native Rights Association, or that your dad --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah, like I say, it was Indian Rights or --

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, there’s -- I -- I have both. There was an Indian Rights Association with Ted Hetzel. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. Ok. KAREN BREWSTER: And then the Alaska Native Rights Association. I don’t know if it’s the same thing.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, it’s kind of the same thing. The Alaskan ones, there's -- you know, that met here in Fairbanks. And then Ted Hetzel is from -- I don’t know what state.

KAREN BREWSTER: Lower 48 someplace?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Lower 48. And I don’t know if you know, my son has a bunch of pictures. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I do. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That -- ok.

KAREN BREWSTER: That’s why I was going to say, Ted Hetzel was involved at the conference. He took all those photos.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, wait, did Ted go to the Kotzebue -- that meeting?

KAREN BREWSTER: No, no. He went to the Tanana one, 'cause -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: I know he went to that, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- all those photos. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok.

KAREN BREWSTER: And I thought Ted was with the Association of American Indian Affairs, but he was with this Indian Rights Association? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. Right. Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. But the one that your dad had going here in the Interior was the -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Was the Indian Rights Association. KAREN BREWSTER: Is that what you called it? DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s what he called it. KAREN BREWSTER: He called it. Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, I mean, just a little local body of people.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it was him and Kay Hitchcock and Sandy Jensen.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that’s kinda where, yeah, he connected with them. Uh-huh. They were Fairbanks people. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, of course, I’m living in Nenana. There was no road then. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So I was wondering about those other Fairbanks people like Kay and Sandy Jensen, and -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: Um.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they were also -- not they, but Kay was also -- see, another -- another Charlie. Oh my god, that Charlie.

He also was one that wanted an Independence Party.

KAREN BREWSTER: Your Ch -- your dad Charlie?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Charlie did not want us to become a state. He wanted us to be an independent nation. And there was an Alaskan body of people, that’s what they wanted. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They wanted -- And -- and Kay Hitchcock’s husband was one of them, and he died. And that’s why Kay was a widow, and that’s how my dad knew her is from when before statehood. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: These -- this body of people wanted us to be an independent nation, not a colony, not a state. Ok? KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And um, so they also had a man who was also, um, um, that Dad met.

Markle Ewan was part of the Alaska Independence, too, and he’s a Gulkana man. Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, I know the Ewan name.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he was Gulkana. But at the same time, with -- through Markle, they met a few Copper Center people. They met Oscar Craig, who was the Alaska Native Brotherhood head in Copper Center.

And they met a man, last name was Charley. I don’t remember. I think first name, maybe Robert Charley? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, there is -- was a Robert Charley.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But he was very up on white man’s law. White man’s land law. Charley, he was a Nat -- you know, a Copper Center indigenous person, but he was very up on white man’s land law. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But he did not know about aboriginal land law. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Interesting. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And -- and so, Charlie met all those people through this independence movement? DELOIS BURGGRAF: I guess. I know he met Markle. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But I don’t know at the same time, did he meet Oscar and Robert? KAREN BREWSTER: Well.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But I know they came up together to Tanana. All of them. KAREN BREWSTER: All three came to Tanana? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Well, if he met Markle, and Markle knew Oscar, then, you know. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: That network -- as you meet one people and then you meet everybody else. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, so what did that Native Rights Association do? Do you know -- What was their role in land claims?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, basically, as a conduit that helped the beginning. Like I say, Kay was a lot of the letter writer for the Department of Interior.

I’m pretty sure Kay wrote that letter, the one informing the Department of Interior that there’s some unresolved -- KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I think that is not at the same time of the petition. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I think it was prior. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. And uh -- And then, like I say now, at some point, I don’t know, I might’ve write -- wrote the letter, or Al might’ve wrote the letter when they were asking to petition the Department of Interior for the land freeze?

But maybe Kay wrote it. But it might’ve even been at my little niece, Sharon Ketzler. You know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It’s whoever knew how to type letters in those days. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, yeah, but yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, and had a typewriter. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s the determin -- and then Sandy Jensen might’ve done it, too. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: 'Cause at one point, then, she got hired on a payroll, I think four hundred a month.

She was Association of American and Interior -- Association of American Indian Affairs did put her on a payroll to do a lot of that work.

’Cause Kay is trying to go to school, you know what I mean? She became a person that was a letter writer for us in the Interior before we grew, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, you know, like I say, when we had to do tickets to go -- You know, the village people. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, somebody had to -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: In Fairbanks had to coordinate a lot of -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: All of, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Way before the internet. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, way before. Yes, yes, yes. And uh, let’s see. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I was thinking also --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: We didn’t even have a telephone. Once I got across the river, I didn’t have a telephone. And then finally, I was able to get the railroad, ’cause our land -- uh, the railroad intersected our land, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So our house is up here, and then there’s this field, and then there’s the railroad. And I was able to get the railroad to let me have a crank phone. The railroad had crank phones. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then even -- this is in, god, it was in the '60’s.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it would’ve been after the TCC meeting, so -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, it was, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Mid-'60’s?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, yeah, it was in the '60’s. And this is when Al was in DC sometime, and I’d have to call Al.

And you’d tell the operator, "Please do not hang up. Please do not hang up. This is not a joke." Because my number is two shorts and a long. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, ’cause you had choong, choong, and then hrrrk. That’s your number. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I mean, there were times they’d hang up on you. They’d think you’re -- and I’d say, "Please don’t hang up."

KAREN BREWSTER: Why would they hang up?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: When you are a operator on a phone, connecting somebody that has a phone number in Washington, DC, and what is your number? Two shorts and a long? KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You’re going to be believed? KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In the mid-'60’s, late '60’s? KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Late 60’s.

And uh, that was a problem. It was -- I mean, I had it. I’m very glad I had the conduit, but sometimes it wasn’t easy to get people to believe that you were really real.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, that adds -- just adds to, yeah, not only did all this go on when there was very little money. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: But how you guys all communicated with each other. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, hon, it was so difficult. KAREN BREWSTER: And who -- you know.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, like I say, the time that Sandy Jensen happened to read in the classified part of the paper where the state was advertising, you know, if there were no complaints or whatever, then the state was going to have this land.

And she happened to be sitting up here, and I think it was the Jessen’s Weekly paper, or maybe Tom Snapp’s paper. It might -- it wasn’t Tundra Times.

But she’s reading it, and she says, "Gan-eesh," you know, to herself. "That sounds like Minto area." She went and got the map, and by god, it was Minto area. My god, the state was advertising out. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And she contacted Charlie there in Fairbanks. And she says, "Charlie, do you know the state is advertising Minto?" Charlie didn’t notice it. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so, here it was like a day or so away from the final line, so Charlie jumps in the car, Mom joined, drove down to Nenana to our place. And we lived seven miles this side of Nenana. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: We weren’t in town.

And Al, "Did you know?" And, of course, he brought down the article, you know, the little advertisement. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That this is being advertised out.

And fortunately, I happened to have gone to Nenana that day, which is a ferry. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And it cost money to use the ferry. I mean, I did not go across that river often ’cause it cost three dollars. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I think, to get over and get back. You know, I mean, six dollars. KAREN BREWSTER: That was a lot. That was a lot of money. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for me. Yeah. We had no money.

So the bottom line is, luckily I had gone. I had some reason to go across, and I knew the boats were there. I knew Richard Frank, the chief of Minto. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Was in town, but I knew the boat was leaving, and I didn’t know when.

I happened to be home when they came, and I say, "Yeah, the boat’s in town. Richard’s in town, but I know the boat’s leaving."

They had to get down. Then they had to wait for the ferry to come pick ’em up. They barely got Richard’s signature in time to stop it. I mean, that is how close to the edge we lived. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And this man had promised us, when we met with Minto, flew to Minto, because he flew to Minto, trying to get the Natives to go ahead and let them, take -- the state claim the land.

And he promised us they would not do that, that they would not file on the Native land. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they lied.

KAREN BREWSTER: They definitely lied.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They definitely lied. They really lied. I mean, it is astounding to me.

KAREN BREWSTER: I thought that whole Minto thing happened earlier, and that it was stopped. I didn’t realize that they lied and tried to push it through. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, like I say, I mean, all of this come at once. All of this. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, like I say, hon, we were like that little, what do you call it? That Netherlands story, that kid with the finger in the dike? KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, we were -- there was leaks everywhere. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: We were -- we just, I mean. All of us. I mean, like I say, if you’re involved, it is, phew. You’re on the front lines.

And um, oh god, like I say, the stress. I mean, I know Don Peters was involved, he’s Fort Yukon, for a year. And he had to quit because of the blood pressure, you know. It just -- the pressure, he couldn’t take it.

I know Robert Willard, same way. He was involved for about a year, but they couldn’t take the pressure. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Their health just -- you know.

And Al, like I say, by the -- when we filed that land claims injunction, and man, those, you know, newspapers, you know, CBS and, you know, all the big newspapers are mad. The phone’s ringing, and they want to talk to you.

And Al and the -- he would -- his body would be normal. But as he talked, a big welt would show up. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: A big -- and quite often it would be on the lip.

And I mean, just oh, hon, I mean, it was horrible. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I can imagine. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean it. The stress was horrible.

And we were all alone. Thank god. I mean that’s how it felt, but we did have the association. We had these individuals. You know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and that’s what I was thinking --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, god. And the church was so hostile. When we first started that first Tanana Chiefs Conference, the Catholic Church and Episcopal Church were incensed. Absolutely.

They had the silliest headline. "The church leadership is a thousand-some-odd years in Alaska." Ok. Well, I knew that the doggone Episcopal Church didn’t hit Alaska 'til about 1915, ok. The first one in Nenana? Ok. I happened to live in Nenana. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And yet they’ve got a thousand years of history in Alaska. Well, you know how you do the math? KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You knew. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: This one had ten years. This one, and they added it up. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, I see. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that made a thousand-some-odd years. I mean, that’s what they did. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean it, hon.

KAREN BREWSTER: So how did the -- that get turned around? Did the churches eventually support the effort?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The Catholic Church never did. Never opposed it, that I’m aware of it, that -- I mean, clear that with Emil. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The Episcopal eventually did, toward the end, last year or two before the settlement. They sent in, I think, ten thousand. Yeah.

But initially, it was really -- oh I tell you, oh, the Catholic Church.

KAREN BREWSTER: Because eventually there was support, at least from -- as you say, the Episcopal, I know there was eventually some support. Um, I’m just wondering how that changed?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, like I say, I know that initially the first meeting and all of that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Their reaction, but after the end part, let’s see, ’71 is when it happened. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Maybe like ’70 or '71, the Episcopals did. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I -- you know, but I -- I’m not sure the time. Maybe it was sooner? I don’t know. KAREN BREWSTER: I don’t know. I don’t know.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But Emil would be the one that would be more aware of that. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, uh -- oh, what was I going to say now? Uh, Al -- like we had the land claims, and then anyway, about a year later, not quite a full year, ’cause like I say the Episcopal Church, all of that hostility and whatever, and uh, so in time --

And anyway, I kn -- there was a new, in that period was a new man that had come to Nenana.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah. You mentioned -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: John Phillips. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: You mentioned him before. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I -- I asked Al to go to him. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I said, "He is good." You know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Al.

And like I say, he was. He was a good man. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he’s an interesting background, because he’d been raised in a communist system in one of your eastern organizations of some kind. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, so, you know, the word communism wasn’t as terrifying. Because they -- we were labeled editorially as communist. We were a communist movement. Again.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, you also, you talked about, you know, being the house that hosted people and -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. We all did. I mean, if you were -- KAREN BREWSTER: What --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know how village people are. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: When your relatives come in, you gotta put ’em under a roof. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, you know, when they come, you -- and they're -- these weren’t relatives, necessarily, but they’re brothers in the same cause. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, you’re -- you're related that way, you know. So yeah, I mean, that’s -- you just did that, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Was there interaction between the other families and the others’ wives like you? Did you guys interact with each other?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh, not interacting because we were too busy. I mean, like, me and Al were terribly busy. Um.

KAREN BREWSTER: Or did the other wives help? Like, you -- you were so involved. Were --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, Beverly, which is Emil’s sister. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Lived catty-corner from me.

Now I don’t know her of being ever really involved. I mean, we were neighbors. I know I wrote a letter to the editor in the -- the newspaper, sent a letter to the editor, regarding land claims.

And I know she read -- I showed her the letter before I sent it, and she was amused as she was amused because of a comment I used.

I used -- you know, there was a commercial in those days about women. “We’ve come a long way, baby.” KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I used that line.

"We’ve come a long way, baby," in the, you know, summary part of the letter.

And I remember Beverly being amused by that. We’ve come a long way, baby. She thought that was funny. (laughter) And I think it was funny because I’m piggybacking on that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well-known commercial.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and -- you know, I know there were women involved -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Mm.

KAREN BREWSTER: -- Native women involved in the efforts. Laura Bergt and Irene Rowan and Marlene Johnson.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well see, Laura worked for Emil at AFN, ok. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And um, what you call it. My little Wilma. I’m getting to where I think I can talk about Wilma. ’Cause like I say, Wilma, oh --

I mean, of course, I knew her since she's a little girl. And she was, I think five years younger than me, in the sense that she was the age of my sister. My oldest sister was five years younger than me. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I think they were in the same classroom, and they were buddies.

And then, um, at one point my mom moved to Fairbanks before, you know. I mean, I’m in Fairbanks now, but she moved up first.

In fact, she moved up the year my kid was born. So that was ’56 when my mom and my sisters, of course, moved to Fairbanks. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And around about a year or two later, even Wilma’s family moved to Fairbanks for a while. And they did -- Wilma went to some high school in -- in -- up here, and then she moved back to Nenana.

And then she was seventeen years old and still in high school at Nenana. And I had not been part of her life, because I was an old, married lady by this time. I got married in ’56, and uh -- well, I got married in ’55 and had my baby in ’56, which made me the old married lady. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so I’m sixteen. Wilma’d have been eleven. So eleven, and let’s say six years later, you know, I was not interacting with her.

I did with her mother. Her mother and I -- oh, her mother. Oh god, she’s a whole new story, too. She’s an incredible little woman.

But anyway, Wilma is seventeen years old, and by then, I think I’m on my fourth kid or whatever. And she come knocking at my door, "knock, knock, knock."

There I am in my little cabin. And I go to the door, and there’s Wilma. And boy, you could tell she was in a mood. And she come in, and she sit down, just to let me know how mad she was at the community of Nenana.

Had a meeting at the Nenana Civic Center, wanting to know what’s wrong with you teenagers. Why are you out drinking and dada-dada.

And she wanted to know why THEY were out drinking. And I just couldn’t agree with her more, ’cause I couldn’t figure it out either.

I would be at a bar, which wasn’t often, but I would hear these bar people complaining about teenagers out drinking, when they were there drinking. And it was like it never made sense to me neither, and here is a spirit of my own heart. And I couldn’t help but agree.

And anyway, she came, she unloaded, and then she left. And I never dealt with her again for, oh gosh, two or three years, when she married a nephew.

She married Dan Ketzler’s boy. And by that time, she’s uh, did she have her second kid yet? I know I had my last. I was pregnant with my last.

I had moved across the river. That’s when we were homesteading, and seven miles across because I’d been flooded five times. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In Nenana.

In fact, the first Tanana Chiefs meeting, I had three or four feet of water in the house. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I was -- in fact, I think both meetings I had. By golly, I think so.

KAREN BREWSTER: The meetings that were in Nenana? DELOIS BURGGRAF: The meetings that were in Tanana. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. But I had to -- you know, I was -- I was not living in my house ’cause it had water in it. And, I mean, you gotta leave. Your house is flooded. You’re living in a camp. And then you gotta go to a meeting.

And then, you know, next year your house is in the same situation and you got a meeting to go to. So anyway, that just was life.

But oh, my kids were so funny. My -- I had a bunkbed, and the kids wake up in the morning. We knew the water was coming up. And but we didn’t want to wake the kids up.

And, of course, you watch the water. You don’t want it to get too high. And it didn’t get up to the bottom of the bottom bunk, and then there’s the top bunk. And then, ok, well, we gotta wake the kids up.

And anyway, by then it’s morning, so it’s ok. And, of course, I had wood and coal stove. You could cook, you know. Cook breakfast. Walk in the water. Cook breakfast. Kids sit at the table.

But the older -- the kid he’s in the top bunk, he leans over and he goes, "Oh boy, water!" I mean, kids.

And you know what, they stayed cleaner. You know, I didn’t have mud tracking in. I mean.

And then at the backyard door, I mean, back door, of course is the boat. We had the boat already pulled up and stuff, and oh boy, they’d go from the back into the boat. I mean, what a perfect world. They just had a ball.

But anyhow, that’s the way kids are, you know. It’s not a problem. I mean, if you want to make it a problem, you can make it a problem, but they didn’t make it a problem, and what the hell. As long as they can eat.

So anyway, but we couldn’t sleep it -- the water. We had to put stuff on five-gallon barrels. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So yeah, like the couch and all of that, you know.

But anyway, that’s -- anyway, when it did that twice, five times, flooded five times in two years, I figured it’s time to head for high ground. And that’s why we did what we did. KAREN BREWSTER: The seven miles out, yeah?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, so that kept us even more remote. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know. So that added to the challenge.

And but then, I would come into my house in Nenana to wash clothes ’cause it had electricity. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, you know, the wringer washer. And, of course, it had the pump. And it had, of course, the wood and coal stove, which I could heat all the water on.

And so the kids and I’d come to town once a week and I’d spend a day at that house, and washing clothes. And at some point, somebody broke in and kind of vandalized. They broke out a big window.

And Wilma wanted to move back to Nenana. Her and Charlie Ketzler had married, and they were living in Fairbanks. So they wanted to come back to Nenana.

And they wanted to know if they could live in that house. And, you know, they would -- they agreed, you know, that they’d fix it up. They’d put a plastic on the window, and, you know, of course, you know, go ahead and live there. You know, we’re not going to move back, because we were building across river.

And uh, that’s when I come over once a week, though. The terms was, I had to come and wash clothes. That was part of the deal.

But then we got to visit and know each other, and I got to talk to her about land claims. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And like I say, I talked for a whole year. And she could hear me, but she -- it didn’t ring any bells. It didn’t make a connection.

And then, of course, she knew that we had to go off to meetings and whatever. She’d kinda hear my, well, "We're this." Or she’d maybe read something in the paper. And anyway, there was this awareness.

And then, by the second year, um, there was an article in Newsweek that I made sure she read, because it was about the Tee-Hit-Ton settlement. (Supreme Court case Tee-Hit-Ton v. United States, 348 U.S. 272 (1955), involving a suit by the Tee-Hit-Ton, a subgroup of the Tlingit people, who sought compensation from Congress for lumber taken from lands they occupied. The court ruled against the Tee-Hit-Ton.) KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I showed her that article, and her husband, Charlie, had gone to school with a lot of the people named in that -- that article. You know, they were part of the recipients of. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so-and-so and so-and-so. And Charlie knew these names. "Oh, I went to Sheldon Jackson. I da, da, da. I know him, I know them." And that is when the "aha." Now this was a monetary settlement. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But on the other hand, it allowed her to connect that last little dot to the land. And then her and I became a team.

And then it got interesting, because by that time, Al Ketzler wanted nothing to do with it. He’d been in that two years. And he didn’t want to be in in the first place.

He’d already gone through what he went through with that organizing the union and that settlement, and he really was not in the mood for being in that. And I could not blame him. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I never blamed him. And he was always a reluctant participant at that first two years.

Now, you know, a lot of what we talked about today is after. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: When he got back in. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so anyhow, um, Wilma, uh, at some point -- you know, which she did, her and her little sister. And I understand, when you’re in the village, I mean, it -- a lot of village people do it. Village life is very -- it’s like living with a very big family. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It has village politics, and then you have your own crazy family politics. And even parts of your crazy family even have crazy politics, too.

And it just gets where you want out. And you go to Fairbanks or Anchorage and get a job. Six months. Get away from it.

But after that point, there’s a point where you want to go back home. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know? And then you go back to the village and pick up.

And meanwhile the politics has changed. Whatever went on that drove you out six months ago is kind of a different dynamic now, and you know, anyway, you can fit back in and go on. And then maybe the next winter, you’re back out again.

You know, whatever. There’s no timing, essentially. It’s not seasonal. But quite often, it can be seasonal. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know. And it isn’t planned to be seasonal, it’s just that you had it, and you know you need to get out.

So anyway, she was in that boat. And so I told her, I said, "Wilma, you know, they’ve started this AFN. And Emil don’t know it yet, but he needs you. You go down to Anchorage, and you go and apply at AFN. Because Emil, he does need you."

And, well, she goes to Anchorage, and she applied to some other jobs, and she got kind of involved in something where there was possibly a demonstration. And I think it was kind of a woman’s rights things. You know, because women started speaking up. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, anyway, whoever she was talking with and dialoguing with -- ’cause she didn’t have a job yet. She had a place to stay on Government Hill, ’cause there was some kind of housing over there in those days. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: The railroad had built, you know.

And anyhow, uh, the woman mentioned something about possible marching and -- and Wilma, "Yeah, I’ll march." And the woman was surprised. "You’d be out -- you'd be willing to go march?" And, "Yeah, yeah."

Well, anyway, Wilma didn’t go that direction. And wherever that was leading her. Because at some point, nothing really came down the pipe. So she went over to AFN and put in an application, and Emil hired her. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He made her second person. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: When -- when he had two meetings at the same time. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He would select which one she would go. And what he told her, "Whatever you said, I said." In other words, he’ll back. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And in the meanwhile, Wilma had been filled in, ’cause by that time I had gone to these Tanana Chiefs meetings and came back and told her what had happened. And what we saw. Not just land issues. You know, like, you know, one of the issues was health issues. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And one of -- you know, I illustrated to her how the people that came out --

You know, this is the difficulty in the villages at that time. Freight would come in, and they expect the local men to stop whatever they’re doing and haul the freight. Whether it came from the airport --

But they’re to do it for nothing. Everything, they was to do for nothing. They were to stop their own life, which is subsistence. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, nobody’s getting paid. But it does put food on the table or wood in the stove or whatever.

But you gotta stop it, because the freight is in. It either come in by plane or it come in by boat. And all of this is to be done, nothing.

Well, when the village nurse would come in, the nurse had to have help with various things on one hand, and then on the other hand, somebody had to, at least a couple of people, assist them.

You know, one, they would have a little card file on the person. When the person -- I guess I should call the local patient. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They’d have a name, her name, and a card file of what shots she had had or what dental work or whatever would be on file.

And anyway, they’d need a person who knew when walked in the door what the name of the kid was. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Or the adult, and get the file, and give it to the nurse. And anyway, then you know, some other person, maybe, to assist.

Anyway, like I say, they were supposed to, when these nurses was in or whatever, somebody had to stop their life and help. And all of this was without money. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I narrated to Wilma, you know, these dilemmas. That, you know, it -- it’s great to have the nurse, but then you don’t know when they’re coming. They don’t ever tell you when they’re coming. There’s “I am coming.” They don’t say, is it a good time.

And yet, from their point of view, they’re on small budgets, you know what I mean. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They’re very underfunded in that era. You know, very under-budgeted. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And probably the only nurse who’s been flying all over the darn country and different language groups and different sleeping conditions and whatever. Anyhow, these were things I had dialogued with her. And so when -- and one of the meetings was -- well uh, health sen -- the health people.

And the health, I want to go back and remark that the only group of people that didn’t sound hostile when we formed Tanana Chiefs, that came forward, "How can we help? How can we help?" Was the health department of the indigenous, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Like the health aides?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Alaska Native, oh what did they call it? KAREN BREWSTER: The Indian Health Service?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, Indian Health. You know, that body of people. The -- were the ones that were not hostile. They -- "How can we help? What do -- you know, what can we do?" You know.

And I’d let Wil -- like I say, I had Wilma very informed on what we’re doing and whatever. And so anyhow, uh, Emil had an appointment with the health department, and he couldn’t meet it ’cause he had to go somewhere else. And he told Wilma, you go, and whatever you say.

And that became Wilma’s role. Whenever he had two meetings, she was the spokesperson for AFN, and he went and over here. And so anyway, it’s through that meeting, and that encounter, that developed and became the health aide program. That -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The Alaska Native Health and Wilma, or AFN, together come up with the solution about health aides, local health aides. Be some kind of training to --

Which it evolved. I mean, it really -- I mean, the training now -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- if a dedicated person. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, they -- they get some real -- and, of course, now with the new technology, they even have a doctor that can -- they can dialogue with.

KAREN BREWSTER: It’s all by -- by videoconference.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah, you know. Yeah. So anyhow, that is -- like I say, that belongs to -- I know AFN, but little Wilma. That’s how it evolved, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Interesting.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And then, of course, Wilma got on a lot of the negotiating boards, too, and flew to DC and stuff like that. Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that is not -- I know you see Brenda Itta -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- and Marlene Johnson. And names like that. But I’ve never heard (Wilma's name included), and I don’t know why.

'Course, she died, hon, in ’68. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Aneurism. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. So that little bit of time that she was there, you know, has kinda been forgotten.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right, and it’s the early -- the earlier period. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: 'Cause, you know -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: The -- I think a lot of the stories we hear about land claims are those -- the last big push, so ’68 to '71. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, and that’s true. More people got involved. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: More active. By then, they're more aware.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And I say, that, yeah, you’re right. The Brenda Itta, Marlene Johnson, Irene Rowan, Francis Degnan. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Mm-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: Those were women who were involved. But you still don’t hear about the women very often. You still -- it’s mostly you hear about the men leaders in land claims.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And kinda in it early, it’s one of those funny things, you know, that there were a lot more women. There was the period, um --

Well, I mean, there were women in Tanana. You know, it was the Charleses. Doris Charles was there, and then her daughter-in-law, Ruth, was there. And that’s the Dot Lake. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. And um, I know there were some women from, I think it was Huslia or Hughes. It was -- You know, there were women there.

And, of course the only reason, like I say, I was there was because I think I've told you about the chief of Nenana did not want to be involved. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, then, you know, the -- I had been -- you know, I was in the role of secretary of the Native Council, and the prior chief was concerned ’cause nobody from Nenana appeared to be going, you know.

And he come to me, you know. And I forget who was with him, either Frank Jacobs or I can’t remember which one it was. Frank Jacobs or the man up here. Oh, that has that island. KAREN BREWSTER: Hadley? No. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Eh.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, Howard Luke? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Howard Luke. Is it Howard Luke or Frank Jacob? I know there was someone with Frank Alexander. He -- he was kind of like -- whenever you’re a chief, you’re kinda chief emeritus when you’re not the current one. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. And he was kind of that status.

He had been the prior chief. He knew the meeting was coming. He knew that the chief at the time was out. He was a captain on a boat. He was employed.

And anyway, who was going to go and represent Nenana? And I had not been given any direction.

And Frank Alexander come to me and said, "You go. You speak for us." He said, "I talked to people all over this country. They say your word is good. You -- you go."

So on that directive is why I was a delegate at the first and second chiefs’ conference. That’s why I was there in an official role. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I had been directed because of my role as a secretary.

KAREN BREWSTER: I didn’t realize you were there as an official delegate. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And now another person whose name I’ve heard in those early days was Al’s niece, is it? Sharon Sunnyboy? Is that her name?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, Sharon. Well, Sharon become a niece 'cause she married the nephew. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But there is a Sharon Sunnyboy who married her brother (laughter).

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, there’s a reference to her being the typist. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: She was a very good typist.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. And she did type some letters, yeah. Uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: Was she the secretary at the meeting?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: No. I mean, hon, no. She wasn’t -- like, when her uncle needed a letter typed. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And she was a very quick typer.

KAREN BREWSTER: That’s what I’ve heard. DELOIS BURGGRAF: She could -- Yeah, she could type a whole book in half an hour. Plth. Plth. Plth.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. But she wasn’t at the TCC? DELOIS BURGGRAF: She was not. And like any technical -- and this is before TCC became TCC. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But she did end up working for TCC in the role of a director at some point, you know. But this is after land claims.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. No, I was thinking if at the first chiefs meeting in Tanana, the -- the Dena’ Henash meeting.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Hm, mm. Which wasn’t Dena’ Nena’ Henash yet. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, it wasn’t? DELOIS BURGGRAF: No. We -- we had a committee. We were -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, that was the one in ’63? DELOIS BURGGRAF: To what -- to what we’re gonna name it, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: The first one in ’62 --? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, it was Nuch’a’lawoya in those days. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. Nuch’a’lawoya. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then the Dena’ Nena’ Henash was in ’63? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. Because there was -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: At that meeting, I’m pretty sure it was that first meeting, or maybe the second.

I’m pretty sure is first meeting is when we had a committee to choose a name. What to call ourselves.

And I -- there, we used the -- there was two or three names tossed out by some of the elders. And I have to admit, us young hotheads kinda overruled the choosing.

’Cause they reco -- they threw out -- there's two or three ideas tossed out, and um, and this one is a very -- in a lot of the Native language, you have two messages sent. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Two different directions. And uh, this one was one of those.

If there’s nobody overhearing, Dena’ Nena’ Hanesh means “the land speaks.” And the land speaks. In other words, here’s your record. Here’s your trail. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Here’s -- here, you know. I mean, here’s -- It’s like an account. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know? Here -- Here you -- Here’s -- You know, the land speaks.

And the other one, if there was somebody behind me and I told you, "Dena’ Nena’ Henash," they would know it meant war. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. That overhearer would know it means war. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So that’s why we -- we could not help ourselves, us younger ones.

I mean, Robert Charlie was on that committee, and oh god bless, I’m not remembering who else. But I remember for sure Robert was there, and I know I was there.

KAREN BREWSTER: And Al was there?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And there was more. I don’t know if Al was ’cause this was a committee meeting. We had to go choose a name, you know.

And there was more than me, maybe half a dozen. ’Cause, like I say, there was two or three elders throwing out some names, and there was, you know, maybe half a dozen of us on the committee anyway.

And "aha." That Dena’ Nena,’ because yeah, we’re not kidding. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: This is serious. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Now my war, and this is one of my very big difficulties, and this was one of my terrors, ’cause I’m well aware of what we were doing in Vietnam. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Vietnam was an indigenous issue. The French thought they owned it. We spent our men’s lives and our fortunes to kick Germans out of French land. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The Algerians then decided they didn’t want the French in their land anymore, either, so they kicked the French out. And then, the Vietnamese wanted to kick the French out.

Ho Chi Minh -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- had created a constitution modeled after the United States, and he came to the United States to petition recognition of their nation, Vietnam.

He was promised if he would be an ally in World War II, that after that war, he -- they would honor that. He was publicly -- publicly humiliated in the peace with Dulles and all of them after the war. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ho Chi Minh was there to receive the recognition and honor of his nation, Vietnam.

Dulles come down to shake the hands of those there and did not shake Ho Chi Minh’s hand. He knew what that meant. That they were not going to honor their agreement. The French were going to keep it. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They came to the president of the United States, they being the French, to back up their claim.

And for reasons I can never understand why, Eisenhower said, "Are you crazy? We just kicked the Germans out of your country. You think we’re going to back you up to keep Ho Chi, you know. To keep Vietnam. I mean, what are you -- do you think we’re crazy, unprincipled people?" KAREN BREWSTER: Yes.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He didn’t do that, but he sent advisors. He just sent advisors. Ok. And then, of course, other administrations -- you know, the rest of the story.

Here I am, and we’re being called Communists at that time in the papers and editorials anyway. And I am aware, my dear lady, how if one wrong move was made, act aggressive, that them Army base out there would send tanks to Minto and blow them away as easily and quickly as they were doing in Vietnam.

And I knew what was going on, and I was scared. Terrified.

And I knew we had to walk that fine line the whole time. One idiot doing one stupid thing would give them that ammunition to come in and win the war.

And this was scary to me, very scary. ’Cause there’s no way. I do not believe in the solution and resolution of war. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It don’t work.

In the meanwhile, Vietnam is going on. In the meanwhile, there was one time, and this is during Emil’s administration, there was a meeting, and I think it was Barrow. I’m not quite sure. You’d have to ask Al.

And I am so grateful to Al. By this time, he’s back in. He’s back in. And there were the hotheads, and they wanted to go get guns. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Emil was so taken aback. Emil, I mean, it blindsided him. He was the presider at this meeting.

And Emil was just stunned, and Al stood up. Thank God. And had let him who -- how did he say it? "Let him who’s advocating war be on the front line."

Man, did that room get quiet. And man, did a few of them kinda tiptoe out. And I am so grateful to Al, and I say that again.

And I’m gonna have to write Putin, and I’m gonna have to write Biden: "You want to make war, you be sure you’re on the front lines."

That’s my story, and I am so grateful for that. ’Cause the US would’ve preferred a military solution.

KAREN BREWSTER: To land claims? DELOIS BURGGRAF: To everything. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: How do you think they got the US? How do you think they get anything?

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. That’s humanity in general, our history. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I guess. KAREN BREWSTER: Lots of wars.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don't -- That’s what they say. There are some people that don’t operate that way. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I know. But our history.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, I don’t know, is a European --? KAREN BREWSTER: I don’t know. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But it is here.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Our history is war-based. You are very correct. For sure. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I know. And I don’t like it. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t like it at all. It’s horrible. It’s horrible.

KAREN BREWSTER: Were you ever fearful with threats on your life?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You couldn’t -- you couldn’t even hear it. I mean, what’s it got to do? I mean, they were afraid a lot of time to talk me. Oh, I -- the FBI. I said, "That’s ok, I’ll educate the FBI. What do I got to be afraid of? I’m not doing anything wrong. They’re the ones that’s afraid." KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they know it. I know it. I know who’s afraid. I’m not afraid. What do I got to be afraid of? I know who I am.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, you guys were tough.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It ain’t tough, it’s sensible. What else can you be, if you’re not you? You know what I mean? KAREN BREWSTER: Well, as I --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: How else can you be? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, but it was a cause you believed in with passion.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, hon, it’s my family. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It isn’t just my children, it’s my nephews, it’s my sister-in-laws, it’s my brother-in-laws, it’s my neighbors, it’s my -- it’s my people. I mean, I's -- I mean -- you know what I mean? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: This is who I am. I mean, whatever, you know. And I -- it’s -- I -- I just don’t -- there’s so much in the planet, behaviors that you don’t understand. You know. And I still don’t.

I haven't -- I mean, like I say, this Biden and Putin thing now. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, like I say, if we hadn’t --

Ok, first rule, anyone who wants to declare war gotta be on the front line. Woo, boy. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, I love Al for that. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I told him that. I mean it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, as I say, you -- all of you, a lot of courage to do what you did. A lot of passion and knowing it was important.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: What other choice you have? What other choice do you have? Its -- you know? KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: To be, or not to be. You know?

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, as I say, the land claims movement was lucky to have all of you to be there. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t know. I really don’t know. I really don’t know.

KAREN BREWSTER: You don’t think it went that way?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I really don’t know. I mean, it is -- I know right now there’s so much struggle. And ninety percent of the struggle is identity. Who am I? KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, uh, it’s a good question ’cause everybody gotta ask that. You know? Who am I?

And then again, it’s what do you believe in? You know, what do you believe in? Do you believe in the money god? See, I never had a money. I know a life without money.

I don’t need a doctor to deliver my baby. Women been delivering babies for millennium. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They didn’t even have doctors. I mean, what kind of superstition, reification is that? KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok? I mean, it is amazing what you can convince human beings that aren’t real. KAREN BREWSTER: Yes. This is true. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok? KAREN BREWSTER: This is true. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I know it, but I don’t know why. KAREN BREWSTER: So --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Anyhow, I -- I -- you know what I mean, if it was money that got anything done. Look at the money. Alaska has had billions of dollars. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: What has got done?

Do you know what I sit here and watch? Alaska had all this money. Now, in 19 -- huh -- '50’s and early '60’s, there was Korea. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know anything about Korea? KAREN BREWSTER: Yes. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Flattened. Flattened. Devastated in the '60’s, right? Late '60’s? KAREN BREWSTER: You mean, by the war and the --?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It was flattened by the war. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Devastated, starving. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Everything bombed. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Everything.

Same time, pipeline, all of that is being discovered, you know what I mean? Here. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, little -- all of that happened, like, not even a decade before we get the oil. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And all this money come. Korea is a thriving economy. What is Alaska? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In that same time period. We’re a colony. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. Still. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I know it. KAREN BREWSTER: So --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And this is what’s going on.

KAREN BREWSTER: How does the land claims settlement play into that? How was that all --? Has it worked? Has it not worked?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It hasn’t been working. I don’t think. If the purpose to stabilize economy, communities, create -- And, of course, you know, like I say --

But I know how frightened the US was when it happened. Ok? Oh my god, the power. Alaska. The state had 104 million acres. Ok? That’s one third of 365. Right? KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Now the indigenous got 40 million acres. Wow, that’s almost half. We can’t allow them to have that power. We’ve got to create ANILCA (Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act). We’ve got to create EPA (Environmental Protection Agency). EPA is Department of Interior under the same umbrella as BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs). KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok? Same machine. Everything’s a machine. Ok? KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It is. Everything is a machine. BIA kept the tribes barely existing. EPA keeps our economy barely existing. We are under the Department of Interior. Power. They create those machines. Boom.

That is where we are. And people know something’s wrong. They know something ain’t working. And they damn near overthrew the current government, but the one that wanted to overthrow was a fraud. You didn’t dare let ’em. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Maybe the next time, we might have to let ’em. It might not be a fraud. That’s the truth, and the sad truth. I hate that truth. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I’d rather have a different truth. I’d rather be a free country with honorable people.

KAREN BREWSTER: So do you think the corporate structure has --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It’s confused, but it’s more the seducing. Right away after land claims, about -- not, I can’t say right away. But there was a period of time, and it came from Robert Bigjim.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. Or Fred Bigjim? Or Robert? DELOIS BURGGRAF: I pretty sure first name Robert. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But I could be wrong. ’Cause it’s a memory, and it’s later. I’m not involved anymore.

But he says, "Wait a minute. Wait a minute. The US has obligations." And with that, of course, if you -- maybe one of the things I wanted to clarify, but under land claims, they were free to run their land, do their business, do whatever decisions. And then Robert, "Wait a minute."

And they’re using stateside rules in Alaska. ’Cause we have never been conquered. The Alaska Natives were never conquered. There’s no treaty. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: This is still, ok? But Lower 48, a whole different set of issues. There were different kind of treaties, like the Mandan, Crow, had agreement to keep their land because the Sioux were swallowing it up. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause you gotta understand, the transition that was going on in the Lower 48. First come the Spaniards. And if it wasn’t for Queen Elizabeth, you’d be speaking Spanish. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that little queen destroyed the Spanish Armada. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Which, of course, become then -- the, uh, well, not a Latin colony. It become what it become. The Latins were out. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The Catholic Church. The Spaniards were out. That crazy little queen. Amazing person. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ooh! And so, like I say, the Spaniards have, you know, did what they did in South America, come up to the US, which was not US, but to this land, and were coming up the Eastern coast.

They had captured Squanto. The Spaniards had captured Squanto for a slave. And, of course, they had come up the West Coast. But then the Russians were off there, too, and that’s where it stopped. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, the Russians were already up, ok.

They captured Squanto, and he was a slave. And some Englishman bought him and moved him to England and promised him he’d get him back home, which he did.

So he’s back home, but found his people, the Chickahominy, had all died. (Chickahominy was a tribe in Virginia, and according to Wikipedia Squanto was of the Patuxet tribe and served as liaison with the pilgrims from the Mayflower.) So he’s with the Powhatans people. (Also a tribe in Virginia.)

Well, for some reason, there was a little boatload of people that came over (referring to the pilgrims on the Mayflower). And, of course, they’d been for 15 years in the Netherlands. And, of course, they’d gotten to the Netherlands because they kind of made the Episcopalians mad at ’em, because they were weird and wanted to do things a different way. They weren’t High Church, I guess. And anyway, they were holed up there in the Netherlands, and they came back and got some boats to come over.

And at the same time, though, down here at the Carolinas, all of that, was people capturing people in Africa and finding good, warm land and all of that. Ok.

But anyway, of course, this is something that when they came over, and these Indians were coming, and this Englishman says hel -- I mean, this Indian says hello, you know. I mean, that, I’m sure, was astounding. But that is Squanto. Knew English. He knew and helped them get settled.

But in the meanwhile, they -- they were not part of the creating. This is what your history books told you, because all this other stuff was going on.

The money -- they were coming over to make money, find gold, find whatever, timber, and make money. And, of course, these people got in trouble because they had been backed, and they did and were supposed to send some goods back. But they were too far north for the easy stuff.

And, of course, the easy stuff become the cotton, and then the slaves, and, of course then the -- what do you call it? The rum, the sugar, you know what I mean.

And of course, Haiti was the crown jewel of France. And the royal house and the hedonist living that the French nobility enjoyed, and some of it trickled down.

But when them Haitians cut ’em off, well, they had to pinch pennies. But, of course, the ones that felt the pinch were the ones that weren’t the nobles. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Little Queen Antoinette wasn’t feeling it yet. KAREN BREWSTER: No.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Let them eat cake. KAREN BREWSTER: Cake. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But then, it was too late. And you know the rest of the story. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And like I say, that’s all I know. And what leads to what and what leads to what, you know?

KAREN BREWSTER: So after land claims -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: But you’re not gonna find it in the history books. KAREN BREWSTER: No. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You’re gonna find it --

KAREN BREWSTER: That’s why I do what I do. ’Cause I get to find it from the people who lived it. If it’s not --all these wonderful stories of yours are not in history books. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ah, yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So after land claims was passed in ’71, is that when you stopped being involved?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, hon, I was so exhausted. And I knew I wanted out of Alaska. Out of Alaska politics. And I did want my kids to see my country and that world. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I wanted my little kids -- I mean, other than Anchorage, and it was sporadic because they’re back and forth, all they knew was Nenana. And I knew they had to know there’s more to the world than Nenana.

And, uh, like I -- after land claims, I said, I am going to the Lower 48. I’m going back. My piece -- that piece of land that I left. That 80 acres, is my holy land. I don’t need to own it. I've -- It -- it's still there. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, of course, it’s where my dad was able to teach me so much about the real world. Nature. And -- KAREN BREWSTER: It’s a -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean -- KAREN BREWSTER: It’s amazing how -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Holy. KAREN BREWSTER: -- how -- yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: To me, holy land. KAREN BREWSTER: That how -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Holy ground.

KAREN BREWSTER: It’s amazing how land can be so powerful and -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: It is amazing. KAREN BREWSTER: -- and be so meaningful. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It is amazing. It’s so amazing. It really is.

And uh -- and I did, you know, I still love -- we have twice a year when the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. And that was so -- in Kansas, you know, it always did that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And our -- our way we talked, you know, was descriptive. "Well, where is it, Mom?" "Well, it’s in that west room in that north dresser." You know? I mean, that’s how things were defined. Because everything was so north or south, you know? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And like I say, it took me about five years to figure the sun out when I got up here, you know?

KAREN BREWSTER: But so you went, and you took your kids back to -- Was it Kansas or to Missouri?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, I went to Kansas City because of a job. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, and Charlie had -- Charlie was -- he co-owned a house with three other people, I think it was three other people. And I was there to camp, find a place to live, and get a job at the same time. So I could show that world.

And uh, the farm had been sold. I mean, Charlie had sold the land to help pay for the plane. You’ve seen that plane? KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, for the -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: When it -- KAREN BREWSTER: Nuch’a’lawoya meeting? No?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: For the first chiefs meeting. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: There's that -- that charter plane (Wien Airlines plane) KAREN BREWSTER: That charter plane? Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Charlie paid for that. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: From the land -- from the land sell. Of the farm. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, of the farm?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah. So that’s how that happened.

And now, we flew down (to the meeting at Tanana). We -- Al and I flew down with Marc Stella and I forget who the hell he was piloting for.

You know, some of the delegates flew in on a -- like Doris and uh, Doris and Ruth Charles flew in with that pilot, and he took them down. Then he came and got us, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But the one that Charlie chartered, he made it the circuit to -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- to pick ’em up, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Yeah. It’s an amazing story.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, so anyhow, I took the kids back. And I wanted to get away from Indian politics. I wanted a break.

And I get to Kansas City, and I, of course, have my two little boys and my daughter. ’Cause the older kids, naturally they don’t want to go. They’re teenagers, and they -- they’re -- they don’t want to hang out with their mom and, you know, the younger kids. I mean, what the heck, they’re not stupid.

And -- but the three younger kids, ok. So they come. So before we even find a place to stay, like I say, I’m at my dad’s in this temporary situation, and I know I’ve got to find a place to stay ’cause you don’t bring three kids into a group of people without getting out as soon as you can and -- and getting a job.

And anyhow, the word gets around, "Oh, your kids, your boys, it’d be interesting, they’re having a Boy Scout Jamboree. And, you know, they’d find that very entertaining, I’m sure."

And I agreed with them. And I go to this big, oh my god, Kansas City has big buildings, you know. And it’s some kind of stadium. And I go in there, and there are 350 little Boy Scouts. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh my goodness.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: All dressed, authentic, in indigenous dance. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Three hundred of them.

And I mean, I could not get away from indigenous issues. There was these 350 little Boy Scouts, all -- I mean, it was authentic, ok. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, I don’t know. There were other funny indigenous stuff like that. I couldn’t get away.

I end up finally in the fall, I found -- I had got my job on the railroad, thanks to Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinman (Steinem) and da-da-da. And uh, um, got to move to where I’m closer to work. I didn’t even need a car. If I had to walk to work, I could walk to work.

And uh, so we’re settled in, you know, for the school. We’re in the fall. We got the permanent home, we got the school, all of that. And there’s the job is right there in the neighborhood, and it’s across the river.

It’s in North Kansas City, what they call North Kansas City. And I don’t know, it might’ve been in Kansas. You know, ’cause once you do go across the river, the Missouri River. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Then, yeah. So I think I might’ve been a Kansas citizen then.

But it was mostly mafia owned. A lot of mafia influence in Kansas City. Yeah. I guess left over from Tammany Hall or something. KAREN BREWSTER: I don’t know.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Corruption is so much part of the US. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: God almighty. KAREN BREWSTER: It’s terrible.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh my god. And um, anyhow, um. Oh yeah, so I’m into my new apartment, and who do I meet, catty-cornered over here, but a little Yup'ik whose mother is dying to know what is going on with this land claims. What is this all about?

She had moved out years before, had married some GI, and, of course, by the time I met her they had divorced, but she had these, I don’t know how many children, at least three, who were adults.

And anyway, she wanted me to meet her mother. Which I met her mother who was a beautiful and wonderful little woman. Wonderful, marvelous person who was from the Bethel region. Who had met and married some GI and these kids were born out there.

And, but, like I say, it's wherever -- I mean, in my yard, in my backyard, yes. KAREN BREWSTER: It was following you.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But anyway, so like whenever I got a job, I had kind of a rule that whenever somebody employs you, it's at least be a year, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. And uh, my daughter went back. My -- Al, you know, my husband then, came down to spend some time, and then my daughter went back with him. She’d -- whatever she saw in Kansas City, she was ready to go back.

And the two little boys wanted to stay. And they did, but it got tough in February. They darn near were ready to come -- they were so homesick. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They nearly pulled out of school, and I -- I was able to talk to them and promise them that as soon as your school is over, we’ll go back. And so, that’s -- like I say, by then I’d put my year in, and then when they finished school, then we headed back.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you were only there for a year? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I only spent a year down there. Well, a little more because I didn’t have the job yet, so.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. But, so you gave your kids the experience you wanted them to have?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. They got introduced. And like I say, the two younger boys -- now the boy in Portland, who is the superintendent of -- oh my god, anyway, it’s a community called West Linn. I shouldn’t call him a superintendent ’cause they do things different structurally. They have three people. It’s kind of almost like a Swiss canton (district). KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok? You know, not one person. Anyway, they have three people who are the administrative heads. And they -- I guess it’s -- I -- probably consensus. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Whatever is decided by all three and agreed on, then that is the direction they go. And that’s how it’s administered. And he’s one of the three. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. And he loves working with them. He’s been there -- oh I mean, he’s almost, I don’t know. I know he’s got less than ten years for retirement. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And maybe five.

I mean, his own son that he had after they were married, after he was already in that role is now in college. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, so -- KAREN BREWSTER: He’s been doing it a long time. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He -- you know, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: But, so when you came back --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So that’s where he is. And then my other boy, who went and stayed with me, now has left today for the Philippines ’cause he has a wife and two little children over there that he hasn’t been able to see because of coronavirus for two years, so. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh. Battle that. He said he had to jump through a lot of hoops to get over. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But he was able to get over. Do this and do this, and do this and do this. KAREN BREWSTER: Good. Good. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: But yeah, so when you came back to Alaska then, you were no longer involved. You --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, uh, the marriage was very fragile, and we kinda tried, you know, to get restored, but I don’t know how to put it, hon.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, you said, you were broken, and that makes sense. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, I mean, both of us were in -- KAREN BREWSTER: We don’t have to --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And -- and I don’t know how to put it, you know. Al was able to function better than I was for a few more years.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, yeah, he continued to be with TCC. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But then he really had a meltdown for years. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I wouldn’t call him recovered yet. I mean, you know, I know the world changes, you change, we all change. And uh, there’s been a time or so I’ve seen the one I knew. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: The Al I knew.

Like when I was sitting next -- he sat next to me, I think it was the funeral of the -- we lost a boy. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: We lost Alec. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And we had dinner at the -- I was going to give it the old name, which is the Octa, but it’s not. Vallata. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, the Vallata.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, we had dinner at the Vallata, and he sat next to me, and I was able at that time to say, "I always wanted to say, I’m so grateful."

Anyway, his response, he immediately knew what I was talking about, and that, you know, was the real Al, the real Al, the one I knew. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the one now, I -- he’s so reserved, so -- I don’t know, like I say, I -- I have no idea. You know. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, as you said, that --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: This is none of my busi -- we haven’t been married for forty years. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And -- but as you say, not just you two, it -- you know, and you gave an example of Emil, you know, his marriage ended and all these impacts on everybody and their lives. That none of you came out of that the same as who you were when you went in.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Only one that’s really floated on it is Emil. Not Emil. God. Willie Hensley. Willie is the one that came out unscathed.

Oh, and I didn’t get -- yeah, I guess I did get to make the point. For us, when we’re going down to this strange, foreign, like Mars. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And very concerned over appearance ’cause we didn’t want to embarrass ourselves in this -- and here is this doggone Willie who had been going to high school. I mean, he -- I mean, that is -- it was so wonderful. As far as we had a local boy navigating us through this world for him was familiar. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, it’s so funny. It’s a hilarious story. And yet it was so necessary.

You know, but Willie -- like I say about Willie, Willie rides waves, but he don’t make ’em. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Willie is -- he knows he’s a good surfer. And he is a surfer boy. I mean, he would be -- he’d fit right in California.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Um, I was thinking of also, you know, once AFN started happening and the more settlement process. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, the land selection. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And decisions that -- you know, all of that.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, what I was going to ask is that, you know, you and Al and Charlie, it was all very much the Interior. And eventually, it became a statewide effort. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: And how that happened and how that worked?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that is because of Nick Gray went down to Cook Inlet and got them going. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. And then how did --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that’s how he met -- he met Emil. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that’s how Emil knew him.

KAREN BREWSTER: But Emil was up here first, wasn’t he?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, Emil had gone to school, some kind, I forget the name of the -- what school. Electronic?

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not Raytheon. Was it? No, I know what you’re talking about.

But, you know, bringing the Iñupiaq people and the Yup'ik people and the Athabascan, everybody working together. Do you have any recollection of how that all kinda happened and worked?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, you know, the little bit I told you, you know, that we had, you know, the conduit was of course, um, Weiyahok (current spelling is Uyaġak). Uh --

KAREN BREWSTER: Howard Rock. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Um, and, you know, of course, Willie, a little bit, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause he was in peripherally when he become, when -- I mean, he -- Willie knew Dad. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, he -- I mean, I’m not saying he knew him personally, but he knew who he was. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. They’d met. Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah. And uh, and that, uh, carpenter's union, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, and I was thinking like how those -- all the Native groups got along? There wasn’t -- historically, those -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, I know. I know. KAREN BREWSTER: Those groups did not --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I’m well aware. And, of course, that kind of was a little bit of a difficulty with Tundra Times, which I think Howard tried to -- I think he did a great job at keeping it a statewide, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Instead of nationwide. But anyway, we’ll stay with the state. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But he did try. You know, like he had the symbol -- you know, the Dena’ Nena’ Henash, the moose and the caribou meeting symbol. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: For the Tundra Times. I mean, that is Howard’s art. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He did that. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. He was very good artist DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Martha Teeluk and Al Ketzler. I forget who was the third incorporator. You need three to incorporate. And I know Martha Teeluk.

And we also knew Martha Teeluk. Martha Teeluk also -- Now Martha Teeluk, I think, was Kwethluk. She was from Kwethluk. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: She was also a university student. And she may have known Kay, I’m not so sure, you know.

Like I say, a lot of -- and oh yeah, and again, another is the -- oh god almighty, I love that little woman, who was a real -- oh, she loved Charlie. Um, oh boy, sometime names just. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I can -- Edith Tegoseak. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah. I know the name. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Edith Tegoseak.

She -- Dad knew the Tegoseaks, the Ahmaogaks. The Ahmaogaks and the Sevecks. Chester Seveck’s sister. Not Chester, but Howard Weiyahok’s sister married Chester Seveck. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the Ahmaogaks and the Sevecks quite often -- and I think even Edith maybe. I’m not quite sure if Edith and her husband, the Tegoseaks, may have been Alaska Airline designated ambassadors. You remember that? No, you weren’t here. KAREN BREWSTER: I wasn’t here, but I may have --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. But those -- they had -- there was the ambassadors of Alaska. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. I know Chester Seveck was. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Chester Seveck. And Ahmaogak was, too. I forget their -- KAREN BREWSTER: Was that Walton? DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- names.

KAREN BREWSTER: Was that Walton Ahmaogak? Is that who you’re talking about? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ahmaogak. God, I’m trying to remember their first name. Olive, I think, was hers.

KAREN BREWSTER: There was a Walton Ahmaogak who -- from Barrow.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: (sigh) What was his first name? Anyway, they were beautiful. I mean, they would come to Nenana sometime when we’d have our Native dances down there, and they’d dance. Oh boy, how they’d, boom. Oh god, I loved that. KAREN BREWSTER: I’m thinking it’s Walton and Cynthia. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ah. KAREN BREWSTER: Is the ones I can think of.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I forget Edith’s husband’s name. Now, he came down from -- they were reindeer herders, ok? KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: When she was a young wife, you know, that’s what they did. And the Tegoseaks came down because he got TB.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, his name would’ve been Tegoseak, but his English name. I want to say, Ron -- was it Ronald, or --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I’m not remembering right now. I don’t -- I did not know him as well as I knew Edith, because Edith came down to Kansas City when I lived there. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: To visit my dad because she’d lost a child. mean, she -- the tragedy in that family is just horrendous. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And she had lost a beautiful little granddaughter that she had raised. And the granddaughter had got killed in a car wreck in Anchorage. And it really crushed Edith. I mean, this -- I mean, Edith has gone through a lot of death and dying, and that one really hurt.

And anyway, she went out to stay with Dad and I in that hurtful time. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: To Kansas City. Oh, and she’s a whole story while she’s there.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did she have a role with land claims? DELOIS BURGGRAF: No. KAREN BREWSTER: No?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: More -- in fact, she got involved more in the tail end when we were organizing reparations for the black community. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I was involved in the early days of that. Edith was with that. And Dorothy Benton Lewis was the little black girl that -- she’d been Dorothy Benton here, gone to the high school in Fairbanks.

I don’t know how she met Dad. Dad, of course, in the carpenter's union, knew Lawrence -- Oh god. Anyway, another carpenter man.

KAREN BREWSTER: But so this black reparations movement was -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: In Fairbanks. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, but was it -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Very small and very short term because we went to Kansas City.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, so it was like, kind of the end of land claims time period? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. Latter time. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Latter time. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But civil rights was all going on. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the anti-Vietnam War. I mean, all -- you know, I was involved in anti-Vietnam War when I was in Kansas City. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, sweetheart, I just don’t know what to say. The times were so tough. KAREN BREWSTER: You’ve been involved in -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, it was like, you don't -- it’s just -- it’s -- I don’t know how to put it.

KAREN BREWSTER: It was the time, and that’s what was going on. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It was the time, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: And somebody who cared and was active.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then Dorothy Vinton and I met in Kansas City and were going to work together in Kansas City, but basically, she kind of dumped me for Al, you know.

And then, you know, I know in her mind how a lot of people’s heads work. They think power rests in a position of persons. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It does not. You know. But that’s ok.

And in the meanwhile, I had to come back with my kids, and I come back, and then I had to survive.

I lived with a guy, nearly we got married, and then you know, it -- Anyway.

KAREN BREWSTER: So when you came back, you worked various jobs in Fairbanks? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Various jobs in Nenana. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, in Nenana. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, I -- I -- ’Cause I wanted to be with my kids. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, oh god, I did get a job at -- let me think now. This is after the divorce. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: After the divorce. I divorced in ’75, was the legal divorce. And the -- I worked on the pipeline, at the -- not on the camps, but at the processing, where they process the men at Fort Wainwright. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: See, they had 350 men coming in every day. And every day, they had -- every man that came in had to spend three days getting processed before they got sent to a certain camp. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So there's always about a thousand men there at Fort Wainwright. And because they had to spend the three days, they had to be fed, and I ended up working in the kitchen for Lloyd Jones, was the manager. He was a young black man from Texas.

And it weighed big news that a black man was in charge of that job, of the feeding those 350 men every day. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Plus more. There was other men that -- you know -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- were part of the operation. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Like pilots and truck driver, bus driver, you know, to -- to -- support systems to process the 350 men that come in every day and then got out, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: So by ’75, then, you were living in Fairbanks? DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I moved in, up in, uh, mmm, I think it was ’75 or ’76. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, I would say ’75. Well, I -- yeah, I'm not positive sure, but -- KAREN BREWSTER: Anyway, close enough.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I remember when they had the record cold in November. I was working then. It might not have been ’70 -- it might have been later. It might’ve been about, uh, more like ’79. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah. And uh.

KAREN BREWSTER: You had -- I just want to take us back a second ’cause you started to say something about, with Martha -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Teeluk. KAREN BREWSTER: Teeluk, Al, and somebody else were incorporators.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Incorporated Tundra Times. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: That was what I --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. Ok. And, of course, the one who financed it was that Forbes. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah, Henry -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, Forbes. And then Tom Snapp and Howard Rock worked on it.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Tom agreed to train Howard, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that was really -- KAREN BREWSTER: But so who was the -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- hard.

KAREN BREWSTER: Who was the third incorporator? DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s what I’m saying. There was -- to incorporate, you have to have three, and I’m not remembering who the third one. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I can find that out. Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Anyway. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Al might remember.

KAREN BREWSTER: I just wanted to -- you had said incorporate, and I -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, I don’t remember who was the third one.

KAREN BREWSTER: I thought you meant Tundra Times, but I wanted to make sure. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: So -- so yeah, once you moved to Fairbanks, it was working for the pipeline and waitressing.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, I know what I did. I came to Fairbanks. That’s right. I came to Fairbanks around ’75, I think. And got a job with Tundra -- with the Tanana Chiefs, to be --

Oh, yeah. No, no, I did. I worked on the pipeline. That’s right. I worked on the pipeline. I got the job out there at Wainwright. And then I -- they had a job, an opening. Oh god, I’m not sure the year, though, hon. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I think it was later. But -- because Tanana Chiefs had been formed, and the first Tanana chief after land claims was that Mitch Demientieff. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. Which is a whole ’nother story and I won’t tell you that one. KAREN BREWSTER: No. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It’s too long.

But anyway, um, then after him was, uh, from Minto. Minto. KAREN BREWSTER: Not, not -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh. KAREN BREWSTER: Not -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ment -- no. No.

KAREN BREWSTER: Robert Charlie? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. No. No, no, no, no, no, no. Back, eh -- Oh god.

KAREN BREWSTER: Richard Frank, no?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, wait a minute. No, no, no. Don’t say nothing. Uh, oh my god. Charlie. Melvin Charlie. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Melvin Charlie. Who was raised by -- oh god, I can’t remember her name or his name, but god, I mean, I know them like -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Anyway, he’d been raised by them. And, Neal Charlie. Neal and Josephine. Josephine and Neal Charlie, been raised by.

And Neal and Josephine, you know, we had little meetings sometimes at airports and so forth, in regard to land claims. They were Minto people. And uh, you know, like I say, they were conduits. They knew us, and they’d be -- they’d have me -- somehow we’d see each other, and we’d have a meeting.

I had an interesting meeting. Oh, I think was when we filed an injunction because Neal and Josephine wanted to talk to us about something, and I met Al at the airport, and we had met some young kid that needed a ride, white kid that wanted to go to Nenana at the airport. And well, we’re going, and so he jumped aboard to have a ride with us.

Well, Neal and Josephine wanted to talk to us about land claims, and so, we went, I think, up to the university area where that muskox farm is. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, that’s not too far off of the road, to have a private meeting about land claims. And then we could get back on the highway to go back to Nenana.

And so anyhow, Neal and Josephine and this young kid, they’re in the back seat, and we’re talking about the injunction or something. It was about the pipeline.

And this young kid got very upset, because he didn’t want to be involved in -- And so anyhow, you know, I pointed out to him, what they are doing is, these people want to go through their land, and the oil companies don’t want to pay for it, and then this is all this is about. And they -- they want to know what is going on. And then he, "Ohhh. Oh."

And then he was funny, because whenever he met me after that, he thought I was some kind of power figure, you know what I mean. Anyway. It was -- well, you know. There’s so many funny things that happened, too, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, but anyway, like I say, he was real -- he was gonna jump out of the car and you know, he just -- he did not want to be involved. And, you know, once you just cut it to the chase what the issue is, it’s understandable, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh.

KAREN BREWSTER: He didn’t want to be associated with you rabble-rousers.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah, he didn’t know, but he did -- what it was. But, he didn’t want his name on it. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But anyway, hon. KAREN BREWSTER: Well.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Those funny little things, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: When you look back at land claims and ANCSA, does it have a legacy now?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, it’s interesting because, you know, some are thriving, and some are having real issues. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Identity, um, conflict, um, you know, I mean the recent one, you know, that TCC is having, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: They’re having difficulties, yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that, of course, again is not understanding the mechanism and the limits of the tool. When you have a lawyer, that lawyer is a tool. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean it. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You cannot let the tool run you. The knife does not run you. You use the knife to slice it, ok. The knife works for you. And they are subverting that. And that is a lot of people do that. A lot of people.

In fact, Americans do that all the time. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They vote and elect lawyers to be your legislator. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. That’s absolutely perverse.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I’ve never understood why we think to be a politician, you have to be a lawyer.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That is the most insane bit of thinking you ever saw. The knife is supposed to tell you what to do? KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Excuse me! I mean, like I say, these people drive me crazy.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. What about the impact of ANCSA on just the people? The people in the communities? Has it helped them the way you thought it would?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The biggest problem is a lot the mechanism of this so-called thing called money. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The management. What is it? Now one of the wise ones, I know, and I saw it in the -- oh, I never saw all of them, but you know how Kamerling and somebody else made those movies about the raven.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, uh, Make Prayers to the Raven? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Make Prayers to the Raven. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: (loud background noise from furnace turning on) I saw one of them segments. And part of it, I don’t know if I saw the whole one, but Al Attla was chief. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: At Huslia. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he was laying out. There was potlatch. He was having potlatch. And he was laying out the provisions: the beaver, the rabbit, the moose.

He said, "Here is our money." And he was so right. ’Cause money only represents food, provision, you know. It is -- it represents that, ok.

Now you know and I know we don’t need ten moose. And if I had ten moose, I would definitely not want to kill them. I would eat one of them, and the other nine would make more moose for me, ok? KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I would have eighteen moose. And then the next year, I would have 27 moose. And the next year, I would have 60 or 74.

You know, I mean, this is management. You know, these are mechanisms of procedure. And meeting needs. You don’t need ten moose. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And if you have ten moose, if you are wise, they will make a herd. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: If you know how. And you’re considerate of the moose, the land, all of these things, and your neighbors, etc. Anyhow, Attla understood. "This is our money."

And uh, there’s like a -- I almost told you another difficulty, and I got led astray because I told you about the Spanish. And the Spanish, the problem in the Lower 48, we’re going back in history. When the Spanish brought the horse, it changed the behavior of the tribes. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Yep.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It made the Sioux become war machines that were swallowing up all the other tribes. The Lakota, the Dakotas become powerful. Ok? And they were -- they coulda -- you know, they damn near whooped the US army, you know? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

And in the meanwhile, the Mandan and the Crow and another band, which I can’t think of the word right now ’cause it’s a different tribe. It’s a small tribe. Banned together to go down and to petition US government to protect them from them.

And the US government said, "We will if you provide scouts." And they -- they still have their land. US government helped preserve their land. And like I say, it’s the Mandan, the Crow, and the --

KAREN BREWSTER: Is that the Iroquois? DELOIS BURGGRAF: City -- No, no, no. KAREN BREWSTER: I was thinking the Iroquois Confederacy. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, that’s way predates that. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: But so --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Anyhow, this is after US government is formed. After Britain, you know, is out of the picture. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That is what happened.

And so that transformation created a lot of chaos in the Lower 48 tribes, because their world was changing. And then at the same time, those Europeans, I mean, hon, those wagon trains were bringing 350 people in at a time. Through. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It took a whole day from the beginning of that wagon, for -- you know, a whole day for it to pass through. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, that’s a lot of people. And they’re desperate. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, it’s amazing how desperate. And they weren’t running away from the land of the free and the home of the brave. KAREN BREWSTER: No. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know? They were desperate.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you say how ANCSA transformed life.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And those tribes had different -- every tribe has a different agreement with US government. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Some were conquered by war. Hopis weren’t, you know. The Hopis were peaceful. But the US government preserved their land. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They’re under different forms of agreement. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And while everybody talks about the -- of course, they are Dena. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: The Dena people, which of course are up here. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Having the most land of the reservation, biggest reservation. That’s like you. You go to a restaurant, you reserve a table. It’s not your table. It belongs to the restaurant. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s not their land. It belongs to US government, because they are reserving it for.

KAREN BREWSTER: But the US government stole it from the people. It was their land.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They don’t want you to know that. KAREN BREWSTER: It was originally their land.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And in a certain sense, I think the Dena know that it was their land, and they buy into the idea because they have a seat at the table.

That they do have some right. I guess a few crumbs is put on the table. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok? But yet, if somebody finds oil or uranium or whatever, it goes in the US government’s pocket.

KAREN BREWSTER: Whereas in Alaska, it goes into the Native corporations.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, it is absolutely. There is -- the pocket is defined, and the who land. You know, that is the difference between a lot of what --

And of course, the Department of Interior would decide if somebody went there and wanted permission from the BIA, too, because the BIA’s under the Depart -- to do something on the land, they would say yes or no. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, it’s confined what they could do. No, you can’t sublease your table. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: To make money. You can't -- that’s our table. But it’s -- we’ll let -- You have a reservation. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, you can --

KAREN BREWSTER: You can use it? DELOIS BURGGRAF: You have for -- for this reason. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: But in Alaska with ANCSA --? DELOIS BURGGRAF: In Alaska, of course, we totally stayed out of the BIA jurisdiction. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But Robert Bigjim, I forget how many years later, "Wait a minute." And they are bringing it. They are seducing.

Well, if you -- we get -- we’ll recognize you as a tribe, and this is your benefit. This is your benefit. This is your --

And they are going to have a lot of the people in Alaska under that subjugation. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, because they are -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: They’re doing that. KAREN BREWSTER: The tribes are now wanting to --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I don’t know how many have agreed and how many have not. I know the Arctic North Slope (Arctic Slope Regional Corporation) is international business. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They are really doing good.

I know, uh, what do you call it, Sealaska? KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Maybe not as astute as those Iñupiaq. Those Iñupiaq are very, very good. I mean, I love their heads. I mean, they are fun.

And, you know, Sealaska’s pretty sharp, too, because, you know, those Tlingits, they are so funny. Anyway. They’re the Prussians.

But anyway -- but they always were wheeler-dealers. That’s why they made deals with the Russia. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: 'Cause they couldn’t stand not making deals.

KAREN BREWSTER: But so, that’s interesting what the relationship between the tribes and the Native corporations.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well see, they want to get them under that jurisdiction, and to call ’em that. Because with that comes --

It’s like ANILCA (Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act). It’s a new machine that they have more -- gives them control. KAREN BREWSTER: For the tribes? DELOIS BURGGRAF: If you -- Control to the -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- one who has the machine.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Oh, I see, the government? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Whereas the corporations, they don’t have the control over it? DELOIS BURGGRAF: No way. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, I see. Interesting. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s your land. KAREN BREWSTER: Interesting. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Your decision.

Your ability to make agreements with each other, honor each other, make, you know -- It’s a whole different point.

And they are allowing themselves to be seduced. And I -- it's -- it’s their land and their life. I can’t live anybody’s life for them. KAREN BREWSTER: No.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: My children do foolish things sometimes. That’s ok, it’s their life, hon. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t live anybody’s life for them. No way. That’s their life, their choice. I believe in that.

KAREN BREWSTER: So when you were involved in land claims, was there any idea about this corporate structure and what you guys wanted, or it was just --?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, it was not a lot of dialogue, because like I told you, they had the little informal -- it wasn’t a formal meeting. I don’t even know, you would call it. I don’t know if Al would’ve called it Tanana Chiefs. I know Al was there.

I was not there. I was taking care -- I probably having my fifth kid. A lot of times -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- during that period, I was very pregnant with my daughter. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, anyway, that is the one when they got that letter that said they wouldn’t do this or that.

And -- and Charlie was there, and he said, "Well, just call it a corporation." And everybody laughed that was there. They thought it was funny.

And yet, when we come to the meeting in Tanana of how we were to form it, there was an option of maybe more traditional way, uh, or the nonprofit corporate, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That they were familiar with, like Native Brotherhood knew about. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: The presider.

Anyway, that is what the choice was, to do it that way. So it -- it -- that was already the model.

And then that corporate presider, you know, all of that, nobody had an argument with it, because I guess you would say, maybe the Alaska Native Brotherhood, that model. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Of boards and presiders and all of those roles had kind of, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: They --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Even though it was not a, uh, it was not -- it was, you know, how the US has, of course, there’s the corporate model, and then there’s your nonprofit. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Your 501(c)3 is not a business making. You know what I mean? KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You have different machines. There’s depths of different kind of machines. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know? And they all have a number. And this is the model, you know. And you can -- if you’re a corporate machine, you can even have part of you turn into a 501(c)3. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Which they have done.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You can turn it into a trust portion. Money and land put in trust under a different mechanism. Which is what the Forbes family do. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know? Uh, I mean, it’s a normal thing. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And it has a different purpose, structure, relationship with the US government.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. But all of this was new to the Native community at the time. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Now they do not and have not, I don’t think, comprehended a lot of what the variables can.

KAREN BREWSTER: So one of the things is that ANCSA was written, and -- there have been amendments. Things have changed through time. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Exactly. KAREN BREWSTER: And --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause that’s human relations. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Change, always change.

And sometimes they make a circle all the way back to where they started. You know what I mean? Human beings.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right, so -- so nowadays if there are issues that people aren’t satisfied with that are in the Land Claims Act, they can go change that?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They -- it’s a very interesting thing. It can be done, and it’s not that hard, but Congress has made it harder. It is less accessible.

And this is again part of Congress’s problem. If a -- if your people that you govern do not have access and communicate with you, a forum and a mechanism to express that something is not working in the relationship with you. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You need to create a mechanism for them to have that addressed so you can offer a response, or you both can explore solutions that are mutual needs are met. That is the point of agreement. Mutual needs are met.

And if one factor is not meeting a need of the agree-ers, it ain’t working. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and as you just said --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And it is not written in stone. Every relationship has got to evolve, and it’s got to be in mutual interest or it is actually, it’s a defilement. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And it is not healthy. It is unwholesome. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It’ll fester. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And cause problems. And unbelievably, human beings at this point in time don’t even want to talk to each other. KAREN BREWSTER: No, I know. Well -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And this is not going to get better.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and it is, as you say, it is interesting because yes, people in our times have changed. Something that was -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Something -- KAREN BREWSTER: Written -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Something become written, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and something that was written in 1971 may no longer apply, work. You know, we’ve had 50 years to see how ANCSA worked. And maybe there’s parts of it that don’t work anymore and need to be changed.

The whole shareholder blood quantum thing is an example. The surface, subsurface --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The blood quantum is not an issue. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. It was the afterborns that was the issue?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: If, if, if you are a shareholder, that is your stock. You have the right and it is even nice if you have the responsibility, will carry a responsibility, to name whoever you want to own your stock. On your death or even currently. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Now, there is a restriction on voting. If you are non-indigenous. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You must have an indigenous voter, your stock. Now you can entrust it to someone to vote the way you would like them to vote. If they don’t honor that, then the next year you wouldn’t let them vote your stock at the next meeting.

Um, there have been some travesties with that, in the sense I’m aware of a young man at one point in time, met a woman who was in distress because she was pregnant and her family had kicked her out. And he married her, said, "I’ll marry you. I’ll help you raise your baby."

And then they made more babies. He died. Some of his biological children kicked her off of his will even though he willed his first-born child, who was not his biological child but he claimed as a child, his child. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That is spiritual. And his other children did not honor the spirit of their father. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, that’s -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Woo! KAREN BREWSTER: Complicated.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ooh, I mean, that is not very wholesome either. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: For every action, there's opposite and equal reaction. Law not made by man. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That is very powerful, and you respect that. Whoa. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That is where you live. Opposite and equal reaction is the law. I don’t care how many white men, black men, yellow men, try to ignore that law. It won’t work. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, and the -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that’s the trouble, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, the other interesting -- you know, the -- how things may or may not be working anymore. Like the example of subsist --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, you know, a group say might -- you know, it don’t have to be -- whatever dissatisfaction one, say locality, village, what word you want to use. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Or corporate mechanism.

They don’t have to include everybody, but there should be a mechanism if there is issues. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That they have to go to.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. ’Cause you say, like surface, subsurface rights between regional -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, well maybe that could even be worked out. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Between the corporate machines. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The corporate machine could say, well, this people aren’t happy. And maybe we will ask the other village people, will they have a problem if we let them have subsurface right? KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they could do it. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They don’t need the Congress to make that decision.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. That's what I'm saying, that all the -- when those decisions were made, they were sort of made in a vacuum. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well -- KAREN BREWSTER: They hadn't practiced them.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It wasn’t like a vac -- it wasn’t written in stone, and there is many -- there’s some local solutions. Some they might have to go to Congress for. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Now like I say, if you want Congress to control your life, they will be glad to. Oh, they’ll love telling you how to live, what to wear, and where to go. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They love it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Revenue sharing is another one that has -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, they don’t want to share with you. They’ll want it all. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. That’s anoth -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Congress will want it all.

KAREN BREWSTER: No, the revenue sharing in ANCSA was another controversial -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, is it? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the revenue sharing, now clarify. KAREN BREWSTER: That 70 -- it means the regional corporations -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, with the regionals have with a one. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yet on the others, they know the wisdom of it, too. You know what I mean? There’s those that -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. That can’t see further than whatever. Ok, some are very short vision and need glasses. Ok. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And you know? They need corrective lenses. KAREN BREWSTER: Yes. Well, and as I say -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t know. Everybody has their own point of view. KAREN BREWSTER: Right, always. And also I'd say, that, you know -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: -- when you’re making laws and policies and things, you have these ideas of, "Oh, this sounds good, and this, let’s do this and this." And then you do it for 20, 30, 40 years, and realize, wait a minute. Maybe that’s not working the way we wanted it to work. Or maybe we want to do it in a different way. Or something.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Sweetheart, one big problem, of course, there’s always between people. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Superstitions about each other.

Ok. I mean, I have seen some of the stupidest superstitions white men have about black men or women, and stupidest opinions that white men have about Indians. You know, it’s just unbelievable, the stupidity that people can believe about their next-door neighbor. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok? And uh, I will say that human beings are very vulnerable to envy. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok?

And for some reason, there is, I think, in the indigenous community, that white men had it made. It was easy.

When you have a corporation, and you have to manage it and the assets and work with others, it’s pretty damn hard being a white man. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause you not only have to work with your corporate machines and the people that are -- you’ve hired, you have to work with your government, your local government. You have to work with your local state. You have to work with the federal government. You might even have to work with international governments.

It’s pretty hard work. It requires people of ability, integrity, and how can I put it, honor? Or it won’t work. KAREN BREWSTER: Principles?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And yes, my favorite word. Principles. It does. Otherwise, it can’t work.

And if the world loses that, the world loses. I mean, that’s just the way it is. If you want to be a human being, you have a choice of being human being or an inhuman being. That’s your choice.

What do you want to be? Whose child are you? Who is your mother? Who is your father? What -- you know what I mean? Who are you? KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. What else is there? That is the way it is. I don’t know any other way. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, this has been very informative, as usual, and great fun. I want to give you a rest. It’s been a long --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, well, I guess I ran out of -- well, I don't -- if you need to go.

KAREN BREWSTER: You don’t even realize how long you’ve been talking. And I say, it’s been great, so -- but I just don’t want to outwear my welcome. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, no, no. No. Like I say, I have -- it’s good.

KAREN BREWSTER: Unless there’s anything else you --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I think we probably covered about everything, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, that’s what I say, are there other things that you feel like you have not said? DELOIS BURGGRAF: I can’t think of anything, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok, well. You can always call me if you think of something, and I’ll come back.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, god. Like I say, there are some things that, uh, oh boy.

This isn’t -- Number one, you know, I have not become an advocate again ’cause I wanted the dust to settle, and I don’t want that to be my identity. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I’m not that way. I mean, when I married Al, and I don’t know what his intent was, but my intent was, I just wanted a happy family. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause the situation, my poor little mother and father got themself in, they weren’t happy. And it was a mis-marriage, you know? KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, but I am amazed at how hard and how -- uh, eh, what kinda is the word, effective? I mean how well they did do. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Even though they had put themself in a boat and on a trip they never wanted to take together, you know.

They were very mismatched. Even though they were both agricultural backgrounds, but yet philosophically and culturally. And they even spoke lang -- same language, but yet very, very different, um, perspectives. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Well, you said you -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And choices of living.

KAREN BREWSTER: You didn’t necessarily want to get involved as an advocate -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Currently. KAREN BREWSTER: -- when you married Al, but you ended up getting involved.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, and like I say, that is, I -- even today, you know. I mean, I -- yeah, I know there’s issues. But --

KAREN BREWSTER: So -- so why did you get involved, then?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And like I say, back to -- well, I meant currently. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: When I was saying, you know, currently. You know, there’s issues.

But I -- I wanted the dust to settle. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: After land claims. I wanted the dust to settle so people could see more clearly.

’Cause there -- one of the horrible things -- Ok, you can put the tape back on ’cause I hate -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it is on. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That come back. I mean, that happened so hard.

I mean, the change was -- like I say, I came in 50 years since that boat came up the river. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And in that tumultuous time was the bird flu that wiped out the Wood River people. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that was Chief Thomas’s people, and he moved down to Nenana people. And that -- that was not exactly a good thing. There was some resentment there. But yet, on the other hand, they --

I mean, some did -- some people lost huge numbers of population in the bird flu. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And some, not as much.

Now there was deaths in Nenana from all the clans. There were three clans in Nenana. The Caribou Tail, Fishtail, and the Middle clan. And I’m sure they all suffered losses.

And -- and then there was the TB and then the smallpox, and then the diphtheria, and then, you know. All of these. And that -- in that 50-year period.

And then, how even that 50 years, the first boat and the church came in 1915 to Nenana. The first white man, 1898 when they had GIs surveying. 1907 was Jimmy Duke.

But prior to that, it was the first store. But I think prior to that, he had probably had a, oh, what do you call it, where they overnight with the dog team?

KAREN BREWSTER: Roadhouse.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Road, you know, yeah. Yeah. I think that’s possibly what he had had before he made the first store.

And then, you know, 20 years later, almost is little more than 20 years from when the first boat, then the railroad. And then the riverboat. Boats are going down the river. Freight. You know, all of that transformation in --

Then, in that 50 years, so much had happened. And then at the same time what happened is these whites coming, and they were entertaining and amusing. They brought, you know, some things were good. Like the first boat that came up, one person saw that bag of salt and just grabbed it and wouldn’t let it go. They were so -- you know. Well, it offered salt. You walk in any store, you could have salt. You could even afford it, you know, you could --

And um, stuff that they used to have to go to Fort Yukon, for coffee, tea, uh, tobacco, you know. Here it was, coming to them. You know, all of the transformation that they had gone through.

Then I come. And then some more transformation. And in the meanwhile, their interests had not been looked at or secured.

And this thing become a state. They call it a state. And one of the first laws they made was not to honor -- and this was Native law, Native law. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Anybody cut a trapping trail, whatever your trap line was, was property. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And you better not be trespassing or taking furs off of somebody else’s trap line.

That was not even -- that was introduced as a law, but they did not and would not pass that. Isn’t that awful? That undercut right there the economic base that was a standard.

They did that first thing in a state. That’s so stupid. I -- this was almost like killing all the buffalo. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. And then some crazy white women decided it’s sinful to wear a fur coat. And I mean, they decided that?

And yet, people are not -- now those European women are still wearing fur coats. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You’re not going to get their fur coats off of them. You know, there might be ethical issues, but whatever. You better --

So like I say, all of these, since the boat, 50 years later, all of this other stuff. KAREN BREWSTER: A lot of change.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh my god. And then, of course, it gets in the schools. The influences.

And um -- and some of it’s darnnright amusing because they’re teaching a lot of indigenous religion in the schools, you know, taking the clan names and the whatever. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And propping (means putting?) them up, and they don’t even understand the whole -- you know. This is -- this was -- what this means -- this is genealogy here, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. Well, I mean, you --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They don’t understand so much. And they’re doing things, you know? KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Adulterating.

KAREN BREWSTER: So did you get involved because Al got involved? Or you --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, no, no. He was not, he got involved 'cause I got involved. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause I was already -- well, I went to the meeting where -- I’m at a potlatch as a kid, and Al Starr comes and says, we gotta do something. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. And your dad. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And it made sense to me. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then later on, I find out he’d been talking to Dad. And Dad didn’t wa -- he would -- he was not all -- didn’t make -- he -- it made sense, but it bothered him. But then he kept looking, and he realized that the whole economic system was upside down. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that’s then when he told Al, I’ll do all I can to help you. That’s what got him involved. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, of course, I am married. And then I have responsibility to my children, you know. And then I have a mother-in-law. I got a responsibility to my brother-in-laws. I got -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh my god, you know. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: As you say, that’s all family. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, this is -- Yeah, I mean, here -- my work. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Well, great.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, I -- oh god, I thought it was going to take -- Oh my god, I thought it was going to take 40 or more years, and I was really concerned that I could do it for that long. I really was.

And then I got -- was involved, and -- ’cause, you know, I was in dialogue with William Paul, and -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- we’re writing to each other and -- And was kind of, you know -- you know this is all still part of beginning and forming. You know, like it’s kind of a void yet, but yet we’re fumbling in the dark with our blindfolds on. And then, um, what was I gonna -- let’s see.

KAREN BREWSTER: Writing to William Paul. And how long it was going to take and --?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then, of course, like I say, by then, we hadn’t had the first land claims meeting.

And then by somewhere in the '60’s somewhere, I realized, oh my god. No, by the -- yeah, toward ’65 or whatever, I guess, is when I realized, oh my god. It’s maybe going to happen quicker.

And then it’s like I had to escalate my thinking because holy cow, it’s gonna -- it isn’t gonna take that 40 years. And I had to then hurry. I had to speed up, you know. I had to do a speed-up.

And that’s when I had to head off ’cause they were going to -- oh, hon. I hate talking about this part. ’Cause I love Emil. I love what he did, and I never, ever, ever want to take that away.

But I could not allow the ten million acre. To me, I -- no, no, no. And like I say, we -- I -- Tanana Chiefs’ position was a hundred million acres. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know? A third, a half. Let’s see, a third for the state, a third for the feds, and a third for the indigenous. That’s -- yeah, where their position.

And then they were going to modify the one hundred million and make it ten. No, no, no. So I had -- no, no, no.

And so, then Don Wright agreed he would not settle for one acre less than forty million. KAREN BREWSTER: Right, ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so then, I -- You know, like I say, hon, that has nothing to do with personalities or li -- KAREN BREWSTER: No.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It’s a matter of position. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Holding ground. Holding ground. I had to hold the ground. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And that’s hard in -- in that -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Pressure cooker.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I am understood Emil. I was tired, too. I knew. I knew. I knew how tired Al was. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean it. I knew how tired I was.

What I don’t know, and I really hurt. Ooh. I didn’t know how hard it was on my kids. I did not know. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I really didn’t. I really -- I felt that they supported me. But yet, I didn’t understand how much it was hurting them not to have what other people had. No money, no clothes.

No -- I mean, these are kids that are -- their dads and moms are making good money. You know? They have cars. They don’t -- I could only let my oldest son have a bicycle. You know? I think he even bought it himself. KAREN BREWSTER: So was it a --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, this is the hard thing. My kids, it cost them so much. And I don’t know if I shoulda done that. That’s the hard part.

I am the mother, and you protect your kids. That’s your job. (start of background noise of heavy equipment outside moving snow) And that’s the hard part. That’s the hard part. I don’t even -- probably, Emil don’t know. I mean, it cost marriages. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, it was horrible.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and I didn’t even think about the -- your kids going without financially. I was thinking -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh my god. KAREN BREWSTER: -- that you and Al were gone a lot.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, I mean, like I say, it’s just -- like I say, it -- And they had to fend on their own. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, I had to count on my kids. I had nothing to count on. And those kids did not have a chance to be kids. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They had to carry a lot. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, of course, they were kids still yet, and they did things that shouldn’t have happened, but if an adult had been there to guide and direct, that wouldn’t have happened, too. You know what I mean? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Interesting.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh my god. It’s horrible. KAREN BREWSTER: I can tell. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It’s a horrible vacuum. KAREN BREWSTER: I can tell how horrible. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It created a vacuum for them. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: (background noise and beeping from heavy equipment outside moving snow)They -- they didn’t have a mom and dad, and they didn’t. And that is what a lot of leaders go -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Their children.

That -- I mean that person who is representing you, their kids are paying the price. They should not get the money. The kids should get the money. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know what I mean? KAREN BREWSTER: Well, as you say -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Or the wife.

KAREN BREWSTER: A lot of sacrifice. DELOIS BURGGRAF: A lot. Like I say, you know, that is something as far as any state, city, whatever, legis -- it’s at your family’s price. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So you -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s the truth.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you have wondered whether it was worth it?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: (sigh) A lot of times. A lot of times. I don’t know if I’d do it again at that price. I don’t know if I had that right to sacrifice them. I don’t know. They paid. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They paid. And I hate that. I can’t reimburse them. I can’t. KAREN BREWSTER: No. DELOIS BURGGRAF: How can I, you know? KAREN BREWSTER: Just go forward.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And you pray a lot. You know, they never were my children. They were always God’s children. I mean, that’s -- I cannot make babies. I am not that good, you know. And I am aware of that.

And yet, on the other hand, I did feel supported by them. And it was so hard sometimes. You know, one of my sons, my oldest boy, and, of course, he’s not here right now, and he had the trauma of Life Magazine had a -- you know, Life Magazine, that -- we -- we didn’t have TV. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I miss -- That magazine.

But I mean, it’s a horrible magazine because you know, for me, my childhood was that Hitler. Now we didn’t have TV, but I read (means heard?) the radio, and I knew about Hitler. And I remember hearing about he’s marching into -- and I think it was probably Czechoslovakia.

I knew the cartoons made him that little, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: His mustache. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Mustache, and that hair was -- anyway. So anyhow, but the political cartoons and the radio, and I knew the war.

And, of course, we had blackouts where you had to hide under the table. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And whatever because blackout.

And then Life Magazine then had these pictures of war. Oh, this horrible war and the bombing. And then Auschwitz and all of that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know. Well, then later in Nenana, when my boy is about eight years old, um, he got -- he brought home a magazine, a Life Magazine, and it had the Wounded Knee. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Pictures.

And it just shocked him. "We gotta get these white men outta here. We got to do this." ’Cause he knew about land claims. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And all of our dialogue, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But was as not about killing or getting rid of people, or whatever. And I said, "Well, son. Where are you going to begin?" I said, "Are you gonna -- your grandpa?" Which was my dad? KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Who was right there.

It just shocked him. What it meant. What it meant. What he was saying. What it meant. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And there’s no way he’d want to hurt Jack Coghill or, you know, his little friends from -- that worked -- their daddies worked at Clear (Air Force Station) or whatever. You know what I mean?

And I mean, it was painful for him. I don’t know if he ever went to therapy, but he should have for that. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know?

KAREN BREWSTER: Well yeah, that’s interesting, the --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, I mean, like I say, you know, these -- these things are hard.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, and you were prepared for 40 years. It still took ten years or more.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, well, like I say, I don’t know when you’d say we started. ’Cause it’s before my daughter was born. I was pregnant when we were public by that time. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But we’d been working before that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Not public.

And so that’s, you know, like I say, the ground work. And then the public, you know, when Kay first came. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That was the first public. You know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, so just -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And from that point on. KAREN BREWSTER: Maintaining that momentum. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: For so long. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, and then so much coming.

And then others that wasn’t land claims, you know, your other institutions. Like I say, the Indian Health Service, they -- they’re the ones that were receptive. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know? And uh, I do want them to have cred -- They were -- KAREN BREWSTER: That’s good. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They were really willing and wanting to know what and what you want and how. KAREN BREWSTER: Good. Well, I’m going to end it because we’ve got -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Your guy out here running his equipment.