KAREN BREWSTER: Get us recording, and today is December 13, 2021. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Close enough.

KAREN BREWSTER: And I’m here again with DeLois Burggraf and her son, Bear Ketzler, Al Ketzler, Jr. Uh, talking about the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act, and here at their home -- her home in --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The beginning. KAREN BREWSTER: Those early days. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Of the land claims movement. DELOIS BURGGRAF: For the Interior. KAREN BREWSTER: For the Interior. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: So. Let’s -- if you wanted to review what we did the last time, and you were talking about it was a weaving.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: A weaving. It is a weaving of different influences, legal bases, and um, addressing the kind of very nebulous at the point, land, unresolved.

And land issues, which for a lot of the indigenous people in the interior of Alaska was very nebulous, ’cause the land was still there. There was no -- no sense of anything being taken. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: As far as land in that early time. And I wa -- this is one of the sources of it. The what all evolved into this land claim issue.

And one of the threads of the beginning, now we did separate from his position, and that was William Paul. He’s a Tlingit from the Southeast.

And the Tlingit, in that day, was as far away as Texas is for -- You know, maybe we heard about Tlingits and the coastal people, but they were very remote and very removed from the Interior. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the beginning of the awareness of a land issue began in Tanana with Al Starr, who, as some young man, as a student, a school teacher, I think, must’ve saw qualities in him and urged him to contact William Paul.

And I think mostly because she was aware, possibly as a teacher, about Alaska Native Brotherhood, which was newly formed. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In the early 1900’s.

’Cause when I met Al Starr, he was probably late 60’s or 70. And I met him in like ’52 or '53.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, he was born in like 1898 or something like that. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, like I say, he was sixty, seventy at -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: When I met him, you know.

We’re talking ’53 or so. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: When I first met Al Starr. Was aware of him.

And he was, um -- he narrated how this is what he learned. And how he learned it was this school teacher told him, contact William Paul. William Paul, then, in the --

I never saw the letters. My dad, Charlie Purvis, saw the letters. Um, was urging Al more to -- about claiming land. Getting, you know, some status secured of land for indigenous. And, of course, they called it Indians or Indian land.

Anyway. And from that, I met later -- I met William Paul and what led him to it? Awareness. And that was from a Tsimshian with his last name was Jackson.

He was a Tsimshian, and he confronted William Paul, who had become a young lawyer. And said, "Well, this is your land. Why don’t you fight for it?" And that’s coming from a Tsimshian, of course, which was across the border in Canada.

And this is, of course, oh, I’m sure, after that Duncan, that Episcopal -- they call him Father Duncan (William Duncan), formed Metlakatla. See, he -- he made a deal with Congress, went and lobbied Congress to get that Metlakatla island secured for some Canadian Tsimshians that wanted to go with the Christian way. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The Episcopal way. That is how Metlakatla origins.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, ’cause I was gonna say, I know that there are Tsimshian from Metlakatla. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They are from Tsimshian country. They are from Canada.

KAREN BREWSTER: I didn’t know they were originally from Canada. Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah. Well, hon, the boundaries were blurred up here. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I know. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: In my time. I come in '50’s, and there were Canadians working here. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In roles of responsibility, like the railroad depot and the railroad agent. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, you know, we used to shop. We had Hudson Bay access to Hudson Bay Company, and the clothing -- Everything was better, and that’s why we ordered it. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then right after World War II, the US government made rules, and we have to shop -- you know, we had to go to, like I say, Sears and Roebuck. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And their clothing is totally, totally inadequate. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. For up here. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, for --

And like I say, the boundaries up here, even in those days, between Yukon and Alaska were -- were not really that -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Nobody worried about it. I guess they did used to in the early days. At Eagle, they had military base. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: To have customs. Make sure on the river -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- they went through a customs. KAREN BREWSTER: And on the Klondike. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But that wasn’t there anymore.

KAREN BREWSTER: On the Chilkoot Trail, too, back in the gold rush, they -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: They had customs at Chilkoot? BEAR KETZLER: Yep, um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, for god’s sake. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, anyway, like I say, by the time -- at some point, they didn’t have customs anymore at Eagle. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: So the whole boundary become just -- you know. KAREN BREWSTER: So.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so now, then, like I say, Paul -- Al Starr. God, I keep -- Paul is his brother. Al Starr, the father, from the information he got from William Paul about land being held in, um, you know, secured for the -- for indigenous people, he went on an exploration trip to see it himself.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right. We talked about that the last time.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then he came back, and then tried to get people interested in -- in -- in doing that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Toward that.

And he was just -- Like I say, I mean, I saw it at the potlatch. I was at the potlatch. "Oh, Al, go sit down." "Oh, don’t stir up trouble." And ’cause, like I say, they didn’t have a terrible sense of land being taken.

Um, I know when -- like up here in Chena River when the boats first came up, they did bank and harbor at Chinoa. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, the Chena people’s camp. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Which is --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Down there, right. Just on the -- KAREN BREWSTER: The old Chena site? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. The old Chena. BEAR KETZLER: At the mouth of the Chena River. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And a lot of the Chena, just -- they just evaporated down either to Minto or Nenana or over to Salcha. They just kinda moved away.

But then even those people ended up moving into Fairbanks. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, it's kinda -- there’s the white world and then what was left down here.

And, of course, at that time, early 1900’s, is when those diseases hit. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That bird flu. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Decimated all over Alaska.

And then the nurturing was, um, the various churches and the church hospitals. There -- I don’t know if there were any government hospital types instituted at that early 1900’s up here for people to go for medical service. I don’t know of any. KAREN BREWSTER: No.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, even the whites. You know, the whites had in Fairbanks was the Catholic church. It made the hospital. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: St. Joseph Hospital. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And St. Marks, I think, might’ve had a small one, but it become -- that become -- KAREN BREWSTER: In Nenana. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And maybe they kinda merged. The two churches merged for the hospital. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know. And um.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I -- I know last time, we were -- we'd sort of ended in, you know, around the 1959, '60, '61, '62, what was happening in Nenana.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that’s what you were ta -- right. You know, we’re trying to -- like I say, land was -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, the biggest problem I would say was -- The number one, when the western world came, fur was a cash crop. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Now trapping and hunting was traditional Native way. And you lived off of that. What you hunted, what you trapped, and what you traded with other tribes.

There were major centers of -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Periods even when war time, they would -- they would have a moratorium on their war, if they were warring, to go ahead so they could have trade.

One of the major ones, I think, was in Galena area. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Was a major --

There would be these key points where clans would meet, trade, and, you know, caribou in exchange for muktuk. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Or caribou skin, I should say. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Lots of -- lots of trading. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, another smaller trading was up Fort Yukon. You know, I don’t know if that was influenced by Hudson Bay, you know, but I do know there was a trail from Nenana up to Fort Yukon that they would go to for trade also. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But, you know, how early that was -- was that before Hudson Bay? Is that part of the conduit maybe with the, um, oh god bless, the name escapes me. The group in -- Old Crow people. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Old Crow. KAREN BREWSTER: The Gwich’in.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause most of the people -- a lot of the people in the Fort Yukon really came in from Old Crow around the time of the Hudson Bay. Now there were, of course, people along Fishhook. Chalkyitsik is Fishhook. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, in that -- that region. Individual. But, you know, there was no big village there at Fort Yukon until the Hudson Bay, and then the sternwheelers came up, you know. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So. And like I say, the indigenous along the Yukon River was influenced a good solid fifty years before Nenana.

And when -- you know, like I say -- well, I mean, I knew him, but Roger (her husband, Roger Burggraf) met Talbert John who narr -- and Danny Thomas at the same time at Wood River.

’Cause Roger and a friend went hunting up there, and they run into Talbert John and Danny Thomas, who were hunting at the Wood River, which was where Chief Thomas -- that’s where his -- who was the paramount chief, that was his village. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Talbert John and Dan Thomas were born there, and they even had a family when that bird flu killed all of Danny’s family.

And not all of Talbert’s, because some of Talbert’s family was, Flora. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Qualle? Ok.

Uh, some was Celia. Celia was her sister. BEAR KETZLER: Celia. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, Celia. BEAR KETZLER: And Esther. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Tommy. Right, that was a sister.

So -- and then Marian John was Talbert John’s daughter. Marian is the one that lived next door to us.

At the same time, do you remember when Flora lived next door to us? Do you remember that? When you were -- that little --

BEAR KETZLER: Before that place burned down? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, before it burned. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, not particularly.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. Yeah. ’Cause Flora was -- she couldn’t -- was deaf and dumb, they call it. I don’t like that. She wasn’t dumb. She was deaf.

But, she'd come and visit me. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, of course, we had to use -- KAREN BREWSTER: You used your own sign language?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And each person, she had to create a language with herself to help us remem -- you know, know. Anyway, we'd -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: She’d come and visit me. And he’s a little guy. He's just about two years old. And he’d sit and watch our conversation with the hands.

And then when Flora would leave, he would insist that we talk that way. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: You’re ahead of your time. I know people who do that with their kids before they learn to speak. Um.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So anyhow, like I say, these are my neighbors. These are my friends. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: These are my -- some of them are relatives, you know.

I grew up as a young woman, like I say, I mean, I knew them before I married my husband. They were in my community. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And um, I -- I was embraced by them. I was -- Oh, how can I put it? Stunned by a lot of what they had to go through. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So many of them. What I saw was beautiful, friendly people who then when you just scrape away a little, my god, the devastating losses they had. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Hard life.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Then the confusion, languages and rules. And, you know, disparaging of their way of life. Like, I mean, they were low. I mean, talk about cultural impact. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, how do I navigate it without aggravating it? Which, of course, I did. I mean, I grew -- oh my god, like I say, my own world was blown away. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: My knowledge, that I knew what a Leghorn (chicken) was and a Holstein (cow) and a Palomino (horse) and -- was totally irrelevant in this world. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I’m trying to find what is relevant in this world. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and yeah, so -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Totally -- and they didn’t know what was relevant, either.

They’re trying to find out the same thing that I am. But coming from a land-based culture, where land, everything come from the land. Even before money. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: My people, my dad’s people, did not have money. They had land, and they worked it in a different way than hunting and trapping.

They worked it in, you know -- KAREN BREWSTER: Cows. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- the seeds. KAREN BREWSTER: And cows. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they had horses.

That's was -- you know, they didn’t have canoes. They had horses. But you had to plant 20 acres to feed that horse so that horse could plow your ground.

So, you know, like I say, you know, the -- everything was work. And it was hard work. And there were -- their life, they had no leisure time. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It was hard work. KAREN BREWSTER: It was hard work, definitely. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and I was wondering that --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so my culture and their culture had ways that kind of fit crudely. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Hand in glove, not exactly. KAREN BREWSTER: Well. Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But yet -- yet you could have a feel and a sense.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. ’Cause I wondered how the collaboration of non-Native allies and into the Native community in those early days of land claims, how that worked and how you felt like you were accepted into their community? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um.

KAREN BREWSTER: How you navigated that?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t -- you’d have to ask them why. And, of course, it got compounded when I married a local boy who is half, you know.

And he wasn’t exactly local, because his mother had been brought in as a young child with her sisters and kinda dumped in Nenana. They were a foreign people.

It’s kinda like somebody bringing in some French kids. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And dumping them in Spain. And they, you know, send these --

The Minto people adopted my mother-in-law. A Minto family. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Who was elderly.

BEAR KETZLER: The John family. KAREN BREWSTER: The John family? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Named Titus. Took her in.

And I don’t know where the other girls, who took them in. BEAR KETZLER: Well, did they --? DELOIS BURGGRAF: One of them married.

BEAR KETZLER: Martha married Chief Thomas, you know. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. Martha was -- Right. Right. Chief Thomas, that’s right.

BEAR KETZLER: That was his last wife. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Exactly. Exactly. And she had passed away by the time I came. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That girl.

And one of them was named Pearl that married a Berg, a man. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t know who took her in until she was marriageable. And, of course, marriageable is 13, 14. BEAR KETZLER: (inaudible as he is talked over)

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, you were 16 when you got married. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In those days, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And um, so I learned a lot about the rules that when you were a young woman, and you were -- the important thing, you know, was your menstrual cycle. When you were absolutely secluded.

Away from -- you were not allowed to see any man or any man see you. I mean, that was taboo, and you were isolated for about a month.

KAREN BREWSTER: Even in the -- In the '50s, even, when you --? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Not so much in the '50s -- but it was just before. Their mothers were. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Hm, mm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. And I mean, they remembered. They’d tell'd us about how da da-da. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: That’s the way it was done, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, another -- and it varied in different little -- you know -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- Minto to whatever, Tanana, whatever.

When you were a young woman, you were isolated at home for a period of time, which depended. A month or so, maybe, for some families. But other families, maybe a year.

You managed the whole household for a period of time so that you had your credentials to be married. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. That’s how you learned, yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. You learned by doing. And you knew how to do it. And you knew the importance of knowing when and what.

You know, you had to be that resp -- like I say, that was the credentials. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: For a marriageable woman.

Once you passed whatever that test was in that locality, then ok, you -- Yeah, ok, she’s appropriate for -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. And like I say, hon, all of these little social and all these rules, I’m aware of that, you know. And then I’m aware of this new set of rules about --

Oh, my little -- I had a sister-in-law who was so funny. Because she would be obviously pregnant.

Now, you know in my culture, you never used the word pregnant. Even my southern little white woman culture. You were with child. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And pregnant, to be that, was almost like a dirty word, you know. And, well, my little daught -- sister-in-law would be "with child," but, I mean, we didn’t use that term.

She would wear in July this long wool coat, and, of course, we knew, when Clara, you know, when -- no, Caroline, had this long coat on, that meant she was pregnant. And we didn’t mention it.

And you -- like I say, there were some of the women who were still quite rigid about that. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Being that frank.

Now other of my neighbors would come over and, "Oh, I’m pregnant, darn it." You know, like Elizabeth or whatever.

You know, like I say, it'd be front -- right up front. And, you know, even though -- well, she’s raised at the mission, though.

KAREN BREWSTER: But it sounds like Nenana in that time period was a mixed community. BEAR KETZLER: Oh, very much. KAREN BREWSTER: And everybody got along.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: When I saw "Little Big Man," that was my Bible. Oh my god, that was my whole portrayal of --

Over here, I’m with that old rule, with that tribe. You go across the street, a whole different set of rules.

And then over here, you’re with some Baptists. Then over here, you’re with some Catholic. And over here it could be a -- I mean hon, crazy making.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did people get along, or was there conflicts?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: There was, uh, statuses. You know, there was naturally the -- certain whites were, of course, above the -- the whole bunch.

And then there were whites who had married in. Well, they lost status, a little bit. You know.

And let’s see, what did they call them? Oh, I don’t know. They had a word for 'em.

And uh, and then, well, within the Natives, too. I mean, my little friend. Oh god, anyway, it was -- She was a bit older than me, but she is narrating her difficulty to her father, who was Irish, but her mother was from Ruby area. And it had been an arranged marriage. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And her -- the -- the mother’s name, I’ll give the name, Rose, was arranged to marry this Irishman, because white men treat you better. Her father had made that arrangement, ’cause white men will treat you better.

Now I had another friend whose mother, which was Wilma’s mother, advised Wilma to marry a white man, ’cause they treat you better.

And I remember my mom, when Wilma was sharing with Roseanne, my sister, that, you know, what her mother said, my mom was just startled and kind of outraged, you know. ’Cause my mom knows how white men are.

KAREN BREWSTER: I was gonna say, white men don’t necessarily -- they don’t necessarily treat you better.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Are you kidding? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: So why did they say -- KAREN BREWSTER: We have plenty of evidence of that. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Like I say, there were these silly supersti -- I mean, hon, you can’t imagine the collision of superstitions. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And there is, I think -- you know, again, I can’t say that for sure, but the -- the belief --

I mean, I know the white man’s superstitions about Natives having an easy life. Ok. Oh, you just had to hunt and fish. I mean, oh, what a life. And the women did all the work. You know what I mean? Ok. Oh, that’s a piece of cake, you know. And that’s a superstition.

And on the other hand, I think in the Native world, they're oh, the white man has it so easy. And the white women had it so easy. They don’t have to do anything, just whatever.

And, of course, they’re both -- I mean the work of being a white woman or a white man. You know the work of it and the hazards of it. And how hard it is to be in your own world, in your own culture.

And, of course, none of us in the US are in our own cultures, because it is a blend of European, that we bring a whole set of different rules and standards, and somehow -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- you know, a Constitution keeps us knitted together. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Sort of. And so --

BEAR KETZLER: I think, we gotta get back to -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: It’s just as bad, you know. BEAR KETZLER: -- the question that she -- ’cause she brings up a good question you haven’t really answered it.

But uh, the aspect of -- of the Native culture really trusting who they were dealing with. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Which -- which one --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. The confusion. What white man can you trust?

BEAR KETZLER: And that’s why, remember, I told you the story of, like, Chief Andrew Isaac appointing Ruth Charles to be the delegate to go -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: -- to the Tanana Chiefs meeting.

And she had developed the trust. She was married into the Native community.

KAREN BREWSTER: From Tanana? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, Doris Charles. Hm-mm. Was her mother-in-law. KAREN BREWSTER: From Tanana? No, Tanacross?

BEAR KETZLER: Well, yeah, from Dot Lake. KAREN BREWSTER: Dot Lake. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Dot Lake, Tanacross region. BEAR KETZLER: Dot Lake. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: 'Cause he was the chief of all that whole area. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And uh, so, um, and she -- you know, her role in a sense that she could type, she could write, she could speak English really good. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that’s --

BEAR KETZLER: And -- and so anyway, that was, you know, uh --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I would call it a conduit. And that’s exactly what happened to me. See, one reason I was a delegate to the Tanana Chiefs Conference, to the first and second, was I got the job of being a secretary for the Nenana Native Council.

I got a phone call, which I was one of the rare people, because my husband, Al Ketzler, was the union dispatcher for the union. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the union provided us with a telephone, so that if the Yutana (Barge Line), you know, called for a worker, or whatever kind of foreman or forklift operator or deckhand or whatever, call Al Ketzler and it would -- the conduit would be through the union dispatcher. And that’s what Al was, so we had a phone.

So I get a phone call from, uh, -- well, of course, I get a phone call. I mean, the phone ring, and I answer it. ’Cause it’s in my little cabin. That’s where the headquarters were.

Anyhow, um, it’s Paul Esau. Paul Esau asked me if I’d be secretary for the Nenana Native Council. And I will --

I’m so glad you brought that up, ’cause I wanted to address, in that little town was maybe half a dozen people that I call keeping the flame alive.

And about the only flame they could keep alive, because their laws were thrown out and not honored or recognized, was maybe some cultural, traditional dances and traditional get-togethers at the Native hall.

Now there had been the one Native hall, that when -- before I married your dad, um -- it got burned down when you were a baby. BEAR KETZLER: The one on the riverbank?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It caught on fire. No, no, no, hon. No, it was next to where Paul George lived.

It was a large, old -- you know, kind of like it would look like an abandoned building to anybody else, but that’s where they met when they had Native dances and stuff like that.

And, of course, Sam George, which was Paul George’s father -- when I came Sam and Bella were the chief. And, of course, they were functioning as chief in a world where their laws were not respected, acknowledged, da-da.

But there was -- that was held. And then, remember now, Frank became chief. Frank Alexander became chief. BEAR KETZLER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And by -- at some point, that’s when Charlie (Purvis) and him were really good buddies. And Charlie -- I mean, like I say, Frank kinda took Charlie under his wing and took care of him. In a sense that they’d go hunting together.

Well, Charlie’s footgear was horrible. And little Daisy made him a pair of real Native decent footgear, and Charlie just was loving it. I mean, oh, his feet had never been so warm.

And, you know, they’re easy to wear, light, and they, you know, had their hunting times together. They had their adventures. They even went gold prospecting one time. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGRAFF: And that was a long story, because like I say, that was going on.

KAREN BREWSTER: As you say, trust is the -- is the key component. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. The key aspect, yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Is -- is --

BEAR KETZLER: That’s why she was trusted, you know. And Charlie, you know, my grandfather, he had developed the same kind of reputation. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: That he was a white man that you could trust. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: And with the help of the chief. Being friends of the chief -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: -- at that time.

KAREN BREWSTER: But the fact that the chief -- he gained the trust of the chief. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: So there was something about these particular non-Native people, Charlie and you and um, Kay Hitchcock. And -- BEAR KETZLER: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: Or whoever else.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, Kay was a whole later thing. You’re getting way ahead. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGRAFF: Where we are at that time.

KAREN BREWSTER: What it was about them that, um, was worth trusting or --? BEAR KETZLER: Well, at that -- it was --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I would say culture. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, there was culture. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Land.

BEAR KETZLER: Well, the way they were brought in, as well. About who -- who brought them into the picture. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Who? Oh. Who brought ’em in. Oh yeah. BEAR KETZLER: You know, it’s -- you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Like if the chief brings you in? BEAR KETZLER: If he bring you in, right. If Charlie'd bring somebody in, they would respect that. Um, it was -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: And as well as, you know, a lot of these people that were brought in, if it was Mary Alice Miller, if it was Sandy (Jensen), they all had credentials, you might say. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And the Native community understood credentials. Ok, you’re an English teacher.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, we’re getting way ahead here five years. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, I know we are, but I’m just saying -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it’s ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I know. Right. BEAR KETZLER: She’s bringing up the -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: It’s a big leap. KAREN BREWSTER: It’s the bigger -- BEAR KETZLER: Of how --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, it’s a bigger leap ahead of where we were in those early times. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And what we’re navigating, and what we’re trying to -- KAREN BREWSTER: So --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Charlie, a farm boy, coming up here, of course, land. He --

There was a farm that was under the jurisdiction of that Jones that we stayed in their house, you know, when we first came.

Oh god, I can’t remember his first name now. Tom Jones, I think it was. He’s the one that had -- BEAR KETZLER: Tom Jones, yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- run as a legislator.

I don’t think he ever got elected, but, you know, when we boarded, before we got our own cabin, why we’d boarded with Tom Jones. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Charlie had met him, and they had dialogue. I guess they had some kind of common interest, because this Tom Jones ended up with a farm called the Peterson Farm that the river swallowed up much years later.

KAREN BREWSTER: In Nenana?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: In Nenana was a farm, homesteaded apparently by a guy named Peterson.

And Charlie and Tom Jones were negotiating on -- Charlie was going to work that land, that farm. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It had cleared land. Charlie is a farm boy. And hon, land was sacred to a farm. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean.

KAREN BREWSTER: That’s the common thread, it sounds like.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, and I don’t know how to put it. Um, I mean, Charlie was very troubled at hungry children and hungry people. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, that really -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- disturbed him.

And uh, anyway, you know, Charlie saw -- you know, I don’t know how to put it. It’s like in our bones, everything come from the land. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t care if you live in New York, everything you have in New York come from the land. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. But --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And yet, you -- you know, in New York, your purpose is to push nature out. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: There is no such thing.

And yet, you -- I mean, someday, they are going to find out, heh heh, nature is there and in charge. And in the meanwhile, we -- the -- we innately know that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And in the Native world, the relationship with animals was similar. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, my dad knew animals like -- like I say, like you know your children. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Every child has its own distinct needs and nature and personalities. Every animal does, too. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It has its own nature and animal, and Charlie could speak to them all, you know.

At least, he could speak to me. Now, he had another daughter he could not speak to. She did not speak his language. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: She spoke her mother’s language.

And Charlie and his wife did not speak each other’s language, even though they were both agricultural.

But his wife’s language was more, um, southern white woman, probably prior people that had slaves. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That culture.

A whole different culture than Charlie’s southern Missouri, you fight for freedom, you die for freedom. Nobody has dominion on you. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok? And so anyhow, like I say, I mean, I know about culture collision. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because those two had it, and oddly enough, they were both agricultural.

But their way of their managing their -- their relationship with land and models, are totally, totally out -- totally different from their backgrounds.

So I grew up in a mixed culture marriage. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they were both white. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Interesting. Well, and you had mentioned being the secretary, that Paul Esau asked you to be the secretary. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: And you'd think -- You know, you were talking before about how astute and smart the Native Alaskans were before the western ways, you know. And that they knew that you had typing skills.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, well, this is what made -- KAREN BREWSTER: And they knew to come to you. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. And like I say, that’s like Al. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, Andrew Isaac went to her.

KAREN BREWSTER: They knew. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s kinda the same reason I assume they came to me. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because they knew I knew how to do the -- and a lot of --

And, you know, like I say, um, who was Sam George and Belle, you know. All of them did not read and write English. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They spoke very broken English.

And um, now I ended up, I said, "Oh, of course, Paul. I’d be glad to help." Well, then I later found out, I’m running for office against uh, you know who. And I don’t want you to mention it. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Anyway, I did not know I was running for office, and I did not even begin to even, uh, what do you call it? KAREN BREWSTER: Campaign?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Campaign, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So to be the secretary, you had to be --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I ended up getting elected. Oh my god.

KAREN BREWSTER: So the secretary was an elected position for the Native Council? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, all council members are elected there. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, no. All of it. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Chiefs, too. By that time it had modified to election.

KAREN BREWSTER: ’Cause it was a tribal council? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, it’s tribal -- KAREN BREWSTER: Sort of. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- but yet like, it's now -- BEAR KETZLER: But it transferred to that. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t think -- I don't think -- BEAR KETZLER: To an election process. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- Sam George, you know, Paul’s father. I don’t think he’d been elected. When he died, for some reason, it become elected.

And I think it was trying to model the -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- white man’s mayor. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They got elected.

KAREN BREWSTER: So there was a city mayor of Nenana, as well? BEAR KETZLER: Oh, sure. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. Nenana had their white mayor. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Since 1921. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, their white chamber of commerce. KAREN BREWSTER: Right, ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, so ok. So they have an elected chief, and I’m sure -- I don’t think they had it for Sam George, but after he passed, they had. KAREN BREWSTER: And so, what --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I know, I think maybe Frank might’ve been their first elected chief. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. Could be. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Frank Alexander. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so, what year did you start being the secretary? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well. KAREN BREWSTER: Do you remember? DELOIS BURGGRAF: I was married on -- Oh golly, was I pregnant with Stephanie?

BEAR KETZLER: It was probably ’59. Probably. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Unh-uh. Earlier. BEAR KETZLER: '59, ’60.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It was earlier. It was earlier. Maybe -- well, maybe you’re right. No, well, yeah, ’58. Maybe ’58. BEAR KETZLER: ’60? KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Maybe ’58, hon. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, close, ’58, '59. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I would say ’58 was probably better. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Somewhere. That’s close enough.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: 'Cause ’59 -- hon, by ’59, I’m involved with land claims at the meetings. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok?

KAREN BREWSTER: And ’59 is when the ANB chapter (Alaska Native Brotherhood) -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that’s when I was pregnant with Stephanie. KAREN BREWSTER: -- was organized. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that’s when what?

KAREN BREWSTER: The ANB chapter in Nenana got organized in ’59. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. And that’s toward the end of it, hon, I mean. KAREN BREWSTER: That was in ’59. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Late ’59. KAREN BREWSTER: May -- I have May ’59. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, no, no. Late. Late, late, like uh --

KAREN BREWSTER: And the Copper Center group also. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, no wait. KAREN BREWSTER: I don’t know which year.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: We’re jumping around. See, like I say, we’re jumping away. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. That’s what I’m saying.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Copper Center people already were Alaska Native Brotherhood. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they were in Charlie’s world. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because of statehood. Markle (Ewan) -- they were allowed.

Ok, there was a group of Alaskans, and there weren’t very many Alaskans. Like I say, we were under two hundred thousand people in the whole country, counting dogs.

And so, there was less, I mean, maybe 150 thousand people. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I don’t know how many indigenous, which a lot of them had died from disease. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, in the white world was most of them Anchorage and Fairbanks, and I don’t know how much, Juneau and all of that.

But anyhow, this notion of statehood started before land claims. KAREN BREWSTER: Yes. Yes.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Dad was involved in Alaska Independence Party. They did not want -- they wanted Alaska to become its own nation. And so was Markle Ewan involved. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so was the Hitchcocks. And I suppose maybe Niilo Koponen and the -- I mean, he was probably a member of the Alaska Independence Party, um, and separate nation of Alaska. BEAR KETZLER: Do you remember that they were --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Under the jurisdiction of -- of -- kind of like the same of Canada and Britain. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, Canada at that time was still under -- it was separate, but under -- under British. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that, of course, broke away. Oh, they were handed complete clearance way -- way in the '60’s or '70’s before -- they now are their own nation. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that was more -- it wasn’t like in opposition to the US. It’s just to run their own country.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. And so Markle Ewan was from -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: He’s Gulkana. KAREN BREWSTER: -- Copper Center? Oh, Gulkana.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, oh god, these other men’s names. Oscar Craig was Copper Center.

Charley, oh god, what was his first name? He was very knowledgeable in white man’s land law. I forget his first name.

BEAR KETZLER: The big tall guy -- the -- with glasses? DELOIS BURGGRAF: They were all -- BEAR KETZLER: Jonathan? Jonathan? DELOIS BURGGRAF: They’re Copper Center people. BEAR KETZLER: I don’t --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Copper Center, they’re about the same, but I forget his first name. BEAR KETZLER: God, me too. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I forget his first name. BEAR KETZLER: I got pictures of him. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, you got pictures of them. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, he’s a big, tall fellow.

KAREN BREWSTER: So they came -- did they come and join you guys? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, no, they weren’t there. BEAR KETZLER: Later they did.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They -- we -- they’re not even involved in tribal stuff. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They’re involved in --

KAREN BREWSTER: In statehood stuff? DELOIS BURGGRAF: In statehood stuff KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And to be a state or not. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And because really, statehood was not even in the picture when we came. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It got invented and started being pushed. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Down the throat, so to speak.

KAREN BREWSTER: But by ’59 -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: -- ’60, when you guys were --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, see, maybe after we got married, was the -- then it was -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- statehood. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and I say --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Sure, I know people had been weaving through that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But we weren’t aware.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And I was going to say, by the ’59, '60 when you guys started talking land rights in Nenana -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, wait. Wait, you gotta understand.

KAREN BREWSTER: -- statehood was already there? We had -- we became a state in ’59.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. Right. But right, by the time we -- right, right. It was a dead issue. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because we were a state. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But prior to that, you know --

These people, like uh, Kay Hitchcock’s husband was -- I think he got elected under the Alaska -- KAREN BREWSTER: Territory? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Alaska Statehood.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, the Constitution -- ? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Alaska Independence Party. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, oh, oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I think he got in some elected -- and he died of a heart attack. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Which he had -- him and Kay had homesteaded. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In what they call Caribou Creek, which I do not know where that is. Somewhere on the highway. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Down, maybe Cantwell or past Cantwell? I have no idea where Caribou Creek is.

And he was an Independence. And he -- they were Qua -- or Kay was Quaker. I don’t know if he was Quaker.

See, we have the Quaker connection. We had the Unitarian Universalist connection, which Charlie was the only Universalist.

See, the Universalists was a separate group. Charlie was the only Universalist. The Unitarians were their group.

And Charlie was kind of this needle that poked and -- and -- and threaded through the Quakers, the Unitarians, um --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, that’s what I was wondering was the involvement with the religious groups and the churches. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well.

KAREN BREWSTER: With the land claims back then. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, ok.

Well, you gotta stop. You’re jumping ahead. Ok. Let me tell you.

When we had our first chiefs conference. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: The Catholic Church and the Episcopal Church had a fit.

KAREN BREWSTER: How come?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: For very good reasons. They were given dominion. They had power.

Number one, you gotta go back to the United States and the agreement they made with the Tsarina. Right? To educate. To provide medical services. The United States government. BEAR KETZLER: They got 200 acres per mission. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, you -- no.

KAREN BREWSTER: This is for the missions to -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Now, ok -- KAREN BREWSTER: -- to come to Alaska? Is that what you mean?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, no, no. You’ve got to understand. The United States made a deal with Russia in the contract. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: To provide those services of educating. And this is William Seward we’re talking about. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Made that deal. Ok, as you know, the United States had a stupid, horrible civil war. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They had no money. So they called a meeting to the churches. They would give the churches land in return for them coming and educating and providing medical services.

And some churches met. Some turned it down. Wisely. As a corruption of separation of church and state.

Now the Presbyterians came. Remember, S. Hall Young -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- was the first Presbyterian. And he got the Southeastern.

Um, the Yukon River pretty much -- let’s see, it was kind of divided up with the Catholic and Episcopal.

And somehow, a Quaker group got Kotzebue. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um. KAREN BREWSTER: The Friends.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The Presbyterians and Episcopals got the North Slope. I think Point Hope was Episcopal. I think Presbyterian was Barrow.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, Barrow was Presbyterian. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: I don’t remember Point Hope. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Point Hope was Episcopal. KAREN BREWSTER: That must’ve been the boundary line.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Interior here was Episcopal in Nenana.

And there wasn’t any mission, Catholic mission, in Fairbanks, until the church, St. Mark’s and whatever the Catholic Church is down there, and they made that church. I mean, a hospital.

KAREN BREWSTER: St. Joseph’s. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. They never had a mission up here. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But they had the hospital.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, then the Moravians were in the Lower Kuskokwim. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the Moravians were the Kuskokwim. Right. Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And there were some Russian Orthodox here, too. KAREN BREWSTER: Yep. The Aleuts.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, and Russian Orthodox had come in. What year did Vitus Bering come in? BEAR KETZLER: (inaudible) DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, 1740-something. KAREN BREWSTER: Something like that.

BEAR KETZLER: Middle 1700's. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Seventeen -- Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, the whole -- that whole area was --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, of course, it was a while before the -- KAREN BREWSTER: Kodiak, Aleut, all that's --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that -- Right. They were there a good hundred years before. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. All that’s Russian Orthodox. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: So the -- the churches were given, what did you say, 200 acres? BEAR KETZLER: Four hundred, to my understanding. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No! Hon, I don’t --

BEAR KETZLER: They were the largest land owners. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They were the -- BEAR KETZLER: Tribal land owners in Alaska. KAREN BREWSTER: I never knew that. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: Before the Native land claims.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, I never, ever heard of how much land. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They ever got. KAREN BREWSTER: But they got -- yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, and --

And, they had almost like government power. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: In St. Mary’s -- And I, you know, um, they designated where the people could put their fish wheels, put their houses.

They had speaker systems into the homes to announce prayer, to announce time to go to church. The po -- And I mean, hon, they’re old --

BEAR KETZLER: Some villages, yeah. St. Michael was that way. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Boy, oh boy. Um. BEAR KETZLER: Still might be, actually. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And anyhow, when we had our first chiefs conference, boy, did they blast us.

KAREN BREWSTER: They were threatened.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. Exactly. The medicine men rose up. Uh-huh. Same thing. Same kinda thinking. Same kinda behavior.

Their power is God. You know that. KAREN BREWSTER: So what -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: White man’s god.

KAREN BREWSTER: What did they do? Did -- did they write letters, or what was -- How did they use --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, you can -- you go refer to the News-Miner (Fairbanks Daily News-Miner newspaper) in that year. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And you will -- they had -- they had -- they had a thousand-whatever number you want to give years of experience up here. And they -- they determined that by so-and-so was here 50 years, so-and-so was here 25, and they added up all of those years that these priests had been here. And it added up to a thousand years.

They had aboriginal rights. Uh-huh. Oh, I tell you.

KAREN BREWSTER: But eventually, the churches became allies. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that took a while. BEAR KETZLER: Yes.

KAREN BREWSTER: How did that come about? Do you -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t even know.

BEAR KETZLER: I think it, by priest by priest. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. BEAR KETZLER: The Nenana priest was --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, like, for instance -- for instance, in Nenana, uh, ok.

The priest really, I mean, they were, oh, the churches. Anyway, one good man was in Nenana, called -- You better help. BEAR KETZLER: Phillips.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Father Phillips. Yes. What was his first name, you know? I don’t know, either. I can’t think of it . BEAR KETZLER: I don't think we ever called his first name. KAREN BREWSTER: No, probably not.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Father Phillips. BEAR KETZLER: John. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And his wife was -- John Phillips, ok. And his wife was Carol. BEAR KETZLER: Carol.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I knew them. And I enjoyed him.

And I even went to the house a time or two and washed a pile of dishes, because when you’re the wife of a priest, people are dropping in all the time, and, I mean, anyway. Like I say, and I knew they were good.

Now John comes from -- BEAR KETZLER: He was from back East. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- an interesting background. He comes from a communist background, but not Russian communist.

It was a Lower -- Lower 48 communist group. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Back East had quite a few different little --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, in the 1920’s and '30’s, there was a -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, you know, that’s where he was raised. In that world. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Huh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But he married a woman that I don’t think was raised in that world, but in the meanwhile, he turned into Episcopal priest. And how that happened, I don’t know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I don’t know if the kids would know, 'cause I know Carol and John are both gone. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh -- but anyway, he come to Nenana.

And oh god, I, uh, remembering the priest before him was Stratman. And I remember Stratman telling me his image of his role and responsibility of the priesthood, which was not at all like John Phillips.

But anyway. Um, back to John. The -- like I say, the church is turmoil. And all of this is going on, and, of course, like I say, we’re back in Nenana and it’s months later and all this.

Oh, I mean, this -- that first chiefs meeting just created a wave, tsunami just in -- like I say, we’re blasted as communists, we’re, um.

BEAR KETZLER: This is the ’62 meeting. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. The first one. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In Tanana. KAREN BREWSTER: In Tanana.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s when we went really public. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, what you call it? I thi -- Tom Snapp was down there at the first meeting, I think, in Tanana. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. There’s pictures of him. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, of course, he was at the one in Nenana, too, you know, when Mary Alice Miller came. But anyway.

KAREN BREWSTER: And that -- that one was early -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, that was -- KAREN BREWSTER: Earlier in ’62? DELOIS BURGGRAF: That was still in Nenana. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Before we envisioned -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Doing it again at Tanana.

And uh -- so anyway, I don’t know exactly what kind of tension yet was being felt by Al, because, of course, he’s on the -- he’s the point man.

And I told him, I said, "You know, Al, go talk to, you know, Father Phillips." I said, "Go talk to him." And, you know, exc -- you know, ’cause I knew he would hear him. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Either he would have an ability to hear. A lot of people can’t hear. They don’t want to hear what they don’t want to hear. Ok.

And I knew John Phillips would hear him. And Al went and talked, and I was not present. I can only narrate what -- KAREN BREWSTER: I’ll ask Al. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- his dad reported to me.

And uh, so, you know, they had their little back and forth and what was going on and what was it about.

And John said, well, he would have a real problem if there was, you know, a cash settlement. And it’s like, he named a name, would get all that money.

And Al’s response was, "Well, I wouldn’t have any problem with that unless she asked me." In other words, if you’ve got a pocketful of money, it’s none of my business. But if you ask me, then I would have a concern. And anyway, John got the point.

Now, for a white to think of a Native getting a pocketful of money was scary. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s their superstition.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, that was the church’s overall stance. KAREN BREWSTER: The stereotype. BEAR KETZLER: At that time.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, they managed. They were considered to be -- I mean, like I say, it was just that -- it was that paternalistic.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. It was that negative view.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, see, the Presbyterians were different. KAREN BREWSTER: They still had it. It was -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: They had it, but they educated.

I mean, that is Metlakatla. You know, Father Duncan had a different policy -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- than the Episcopal patronizing.

KAREN BREWSTER: And Sheldon Jackson was Presbyterian. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he was Presbyterian. KAREN BREWSTER: And he was about education.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And right. And they did get out of Tlingit country, they had lawyers, and etcetera. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Way before any notion --

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, so, I -- it sounds like some of that transition for the churches was, as you say, individual priests, person to person. Al talked to one priest.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, the ones that had the most, oh my god, was that --

KAREN BREWSTER: That it’s all about individual relationships. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, ’cause --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, like I say, the ones that the -- they never ever came in support of it. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Was the Catholic.

KAREN BREWSTER: But later in land claims, like Emil Notti went out to the -- BEAR KETZLER: Eventually. KAREN BREWSTER: -- Lower 48 --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, well then, you got to back up some more. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. No, I know, that was later.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because Charlie Purvis, when he moved stateside. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh yeah, you mentioned Quakers. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In 1968. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He traveled all over to different churches. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s -- yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: All over to different churches. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And told them what was going on in Alaska. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And some heard him, and some didn’t. But when Emil went out to -- around the time of when that big Democratic Party had that in Chicago. That -- KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. That was ’68. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He went out and -- BEAR KETZLER: ’68.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. And anyway, the churches knew what he was talking about. He never ever, I don’t think, wondered how the hell did they know. And they voted to back land claims.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And so, it was because Charlie --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, like I say, I know the Episcopal -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- I think and toward the end of land claims sent ten thousand dollars to AFN (Alaska Federation of Natives). BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, and (inaudible) KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, much-needed money. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Oh, yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Emil. Oh my god, Emil. I mean, like I say, he worked for years, and like I -- you know, his wife divorced him, because they were sharing a can of beans. And they had a child. I mean, the wife had had it, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: So did Charlie go to Quaker churches? DELOIS BURGGRAF: He went anywhere. BEAR KETZLER: All of ’em. Anybody would -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: When he was stateside, he’d talk to any institution. And the churches were the door. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, he --

KAREN BREWSTER: Do you know how he found out about ’em, or he just --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Hon, their churches are everywhere in the Lower 48. KAREN BREWSTER: He’d just go knock on the door? DELOIS BURGGRAF: He grew up -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: Pretty much, though.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, he’d engage the -- he’d engage a -- And usually a social -- there’s a social director. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They want a spokesperson, and somebody exotic from Alaska to talk about Alaska Native and la-da-da. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: There’s what -- and some of them would shut the door. You know, I mean, like I say.

BEAR KETZLER: A lot of the churches that he went to, they would call ahead and say, "Ok, we had a guest speaker. I think you need to hear what he's had to say." KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Oh, right.

BEAR KETZLER: And they would -- he would drive to that community, go to churches. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGRAFF: And I mean, when Al went Outside -- what the heck did Al go out for?

Oh, he stopped to visit Charlie when Charlie was in Kansas City. He was heading, I guess, over to Bill Byler (with the Association on American Indian Affairs - AAIA). Maybe he came back and stopped to see Charlie.

But Charlie called up the Kansas City Star and got a reporter, because Al Ketzler, the head of the -- for land claims -- I mean, it’s in there. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, I saw the little bit of -- little thing in the column of publicity. I mean, Charlie knew --

He knows machines. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he knows how to turn the ignition on them. And some of them, of course, the battery is dead.

KAREN BREWSTER: That’s a great metaphor, the machines and turn on the ignition.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Charlie had only, like I say, five years of formal schooling.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Now, so you say, he moved to -- he moved to Kansas City in 19 -- ? DELOIS BURGGRAF: In 1968. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He moved back to the Lower 48.

And then he came back in ’71, I think, or two?

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, ’cause I thought he passed away up here. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: Oh, yeah. He did. In the --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. He came back, I think, in ’72 or something. BEAR KETZLER: -- late 80’s. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: I’m trying to think of when the church changed their stance, but, uh --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, he was an anti-war by then. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He was Outside and --

BEAR KETZLER: It was probably in ’67, '68. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I’m sorry.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, they started changing? BEAR KETZLER: When Bishop Gordon -- Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: So it was -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Now wait, wait, wait. What'd he --

KAREN BREWSTER: When the churches started coming on board? BEAR KETZLER: The Episcopal church, especially.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t know. Like I say, Bishop Gordon, there was a big to-do in the press. Bishop Gordon decided the -- at Point Hope, that the graveyard belonged to the Episcopal. Ok.

Here is all these Iñupiat bodies out there, and uh, some little Iñupiat dared to become, I don’t know, a Baptist or something.

And when they died, Bishop Gordon wouldn’t let her be buried in the Point Hope. And that -- ’cause he decided it was Episcopal.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. ’Cause he was the bishop for the Episcopal church? DELOIS BURGGRAF: But yet, I’m sure -- BEAR KETZLER: For all Alaska. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- those bodies had been there before the Episcopal church. BEAR KETZLER: We knew him. I knew him, you know -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: A lot of them. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

And his wife is -- Shirley’s still alive. BEAR KETZLER: Could be, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: No, she is. BEAR KETZLER: She still is? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: Wow, she must be in her 90’s. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: She must be waaay now.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. She’s a friend of a friend of mine, so I -- I -- But yeah. I was surprised, too. DELOIS BURGGRAF: So -- BEAR KETZLER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So anyhow, that was a big boo-hoo before land claims. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: But so, in ’62, what can you --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And another issue before land claims. Uh, that made the news, and I was married then, and that is the duck scandal. KAREN BREWSTER: Right, in -- in Barrow. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: The duck-in. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In Barrow. Right. Right.

Like I say, before land claims, it was hunting and fishing issues more than --

You know, the people felt the -- ’cause like I say, that’s the economy, stupid. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, you know -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know?

KAREN BREWSTER: -- the duck-in and Project Chariot are kind of --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, Project Chariot -- like I say, now, you wanted to know the threads that connected. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And now, we’re back again, and that Project Chariot did happen before the duck thing. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, like I say, these crazy ideas. Number one, somebody dreams up Project Chariot, and then over here, somebody dreams up Rampart Dam. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then that created -- ’cause Turak Newman, at -- I forget if the first or second Tanana Chiefs meeting when Turak Newman. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, came to Dad when Dad was at the meeting.

And, you know, Turak told, you know, Charlie, "Well, I’m opposed to Rampart Dam." And Charlie said, well -- he was the delegate from Beaver. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Charlie said, "Well, bring it to the floor." You know.

And that’s when -- I forget who was there. I think, yeah, I think it was Roscoe Bell. He was, I think, the attorney general. KAREN BREWSTER: Yep. He was.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And um, anyhow, he -- Turak got up, and "I am opposed to the Rampart Dam." And man, you heard the whole floor just, oh!

And then, "Me too." "Me too." You know, Fort Yukon. You know, like I say, it’s just me too. Me too.

And uh, then the Corps of Engineers were there. That’s kind of -- the Corps of Engineers were there. KAREN BREWSTER: That was the ’62? BEAR KETZLER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, and then they started then advocating why this is such a -- Oh, it’ll make it warmer. All of that water will make it warmer.

And one of them said -- there was a piece -- he had a map up there of where if he had a choice, he would choose this piece of land right here. Which kind of jutted out like that into this lake that would be formed. KAREN BREWSTER: Like a peninsula.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: This was kinda where Rampart is. Where Rampart would be the highest. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, it’s where Rampart Canyon’s at. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he would point -- you know, he -- right there.

And uh, Percy Herbert from Fort Yukon, he gets up, and he said, he would -- "That north wind in the winter will come through and blow over that lake." And anyway, he told him. Anyway, it made it look like a pretty stupid idea.

And anyhow, then we had in our committee meeting, which I was in, until those impacted by Rampart Dam agreed we would stand with them in opposition. That’s what the whole group -- and I was on that committee. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Well, Alfred -- Alfred Grant was the funniest one. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, Alfred Grant. BEAR KETZLER: He brought --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, he made a funny one. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, well, no. No, oh, yeah. Well, ’cause Percy continued with pointing out that in Fort Yukon, for a number of years, they had no school building.

They -- the one school building for elementary had been declared by fire departments as -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- you know.

But yet the kids were still going to school there. And another building that was used, I forget what -- was maybe a condemned, I don’t know.

But anyway, and he -- he says, "It’s gonna take at least twenty years for those water to get to Fort Yukon. So for twenty years, our kids are gonna have to have these inadequate buildings for their education."

And Roscoe Bell got up and stood up and says, well, he doesn’t know about the school situation, but when he gets back to Juneau, he’ll check into it.

Al Grant from Tanana stands up and says, he’s gonna -- Al’s gonna make a point, but I -- what he did say, and I remember this, but I don’t remember the point he made after.

He said, "First of all, first of all, I want to thank Mr. Roscoe Bell for promising to educate my Fort Yukon brothers before he drowns them." Oh, we fell on the floor! We -- Oh my god, all of us.

I mean, hon, our benches were very crude. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s awesome. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, you know, it was not -- you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I’ve seen the pictures of the meeting hall.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh my. Anyway, oh. And I -- If he made a point after that for Tanana’s behalf, I don’t remember what it was, but anyhow.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, that’s great. So were there, um -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: That kind of --

KAREN BREWSTER: Were there minutes from this meeting? BEAR KETZLER: Hm-mm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh, Clarabelle Charlie kept them. I mean, she didn’t -- BEAR KETZLER: I have copies, yep. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- keep them, she made them. KAREN BREWSTER: You do? BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Clarabelle would have to be -- hon, anybody that did shorthand. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Only they can translate their own shorthand. KAREN BREWSTER: So Clarabelle --

BEAR KETZLER: I have the originals. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Clarabelle Charlie. KAREN BREWSTER: -- Charlie was the secretary?

BEAR KETZLER: Somebody typed them up. I thought you typed ’em up. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, no, no. BEAR KETZLER: But yeah, they’re nicely typed. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. BEAR KETZLER: In a professional form.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I never saw that. I know -- BEAR KETZLER: Oh, sure. I have ’62 and '63 meetings. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I only know is Clarabelle’s shorthand.

KAREN BREWSTER: And was it in -- in, um, Athasbascan, or --? DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, no, no. KAREN BREWSTER: It was in English? BEAR KETZLER: It was in English. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, no.

’Cause these are mixed languages. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Tanana, you know, that was all different languages.

I mean, Fort Yukon Gwich’in is not. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, Fort Yukon is Gwich’in, but -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: In the -- in the meanwhile --

BEAR KETZLER: Oh, Fredson. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, Bill Fredson. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s Lu Young’s brother. (Lu was the first wife of Alaska representative, Don Young) BEAR KETZLER: That’s the name I couldn’t remember. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh.

BEAR KETZLER: The other name we were trying to remember. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh. BEAR KETZLER: Fredson.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh, Bill Fredson is from Fort Yukon. He was adorable. BEAR KETZLER: No, he was -- he was -- Well --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Bill Fredson is Lew Young's -- yeah, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I -- he maybe was second year or first year, I’m not sure. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause those meetings, I have to admit, as the years gone by, are merging in my head. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And who was who.

Because one of the first -- the first meeting, um, is when Kennedy had some kind of a committee come up, or whatever, to --

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, yeah, there was the Department of Interior’s Task Force on -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, task force. KAREN BREWSTER: -- on Alaska Native Affairs. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: That was the -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. Right. KAREN BREWSTER: -- ’62 meeting in Tanana. BEAR KETZLER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah, there was the task force. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, and that was --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, of course, like I say, we had the Corps of Engineers that, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, they were at that same meeting. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, ok.

KAREN BREWSTER: ’Cause they’re in the pictures. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. KAREN BREWSTER: Their presentation with their map and stuff.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. And then one of them, too, we had the Metlakatla mayor came, because he wanted support for the fish traps. Metlakatla was allowed -- KAREN BREWSTER: Mm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- four fish traps in their treaty, but that was, of course, in jeopardy.

And he wanted support for that. Uh-huh. I forget his first name. I remember his last name was Ryan. And from Metlakatla. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: I forget how many tribes were actually represented. KAREN BREWSTER: 32, I think. BEAR KETZLER: 32, I think, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: That’s the number I’ve heard. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Could have been even more. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, I don’t think more. KAREN BREWSTER: But, you know, how did you get -- BEAR KETZLER: From Glennallen, from -- you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, the whole Interior. BEAR KETZLER: Down Southeast.

KAREN BREWSTER: So yeah, how did you get everybody --? BEAR KETZLER: Was Tyonek? Anybody sent from Tyonek?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, I think -- like I say -- Now, one of those years, I remember coming in -- your dad and I come in, I think, with Marc Stella (owned Tanana Air Taxi). Who was the pilot who brought us in. And I think Marc had also brought in Ruth and Doris Charles on --

Now, the first year is when Charlie got that plane, right?

BEAR KETZLER: The first year. Yeah, he got the big charter. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Charlie -- BEAR KETZLER: The DC-3. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right, right. That’s the -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- chartered some big old World War II plane. KAREN BREWSTER: Like a --

BEAR KETZLER: The Wien Airlines. KAREN BREWSTER: Wien. I was thinking it was a Wien airplane. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And from World War -- left over from World War II. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, uh.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so that came from Fairbanks to Tanana? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, well, he had them -- BEAR KETZLER: Went to all the villages. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, really. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, he had them land at the villages that -- BEAR KETZLER: To pick up the delegates.

KAREN BREWSTER: They had long enough airstrips for a big plane like that? BEAR KETZLER: Most places, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, see, during World War II, hon, remember -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- they had CAA (Civil Aeronautics Authority) and -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, all of that over. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause we were under military -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know. KAREN BREWSTER: And like out in --

BEAR KETZLER: Some villages, like Stevens Village, stuff, of course, they didn’t. Or Rampart.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did they come -- did they come by boat, then? DELOIS BURGGRAF: And there was those that come by boat. BEAR KETZLER: Most of them by boat. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Minto. BEAR KETZLER: Most -- KAREN BREWSTER: The nearby ones? BEAR KETZLER: The near ones.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: There was a pretty good-sized delegation from Minto that came in by boat.

BEAR KETZLER: The whole river side was full of boats, I remember that. Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah.

And I think, isn’t that, is that the year Ted Hetzel came? BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, Ted Hetzel and Charlie (Purvis) -- Eli Charlie brought Charlie and Ted Hetzel down. BEAR KETZLER: By boat. KAREN BREWSTER: By boat from Nenana? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right, by boat from Nenana. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because they were -- BEAR KETZLER: A long ways. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- laid over. They were late in getting there, and I remember Clarabelle was frightened and -- and very concerned.

And, I mean, she kind of burst into tears. She was concerned about her dad.

And anyway, of course, when the dad came, he was irritated at his daughter for being concerned about him. And, you know, he said, well, we didn’t even get wet, he says, you know. I mean, she -- you know, in his mind --

But she’d grown up in the mission and stuff. See, her mother for years had had TB and had been taken -- Oh god, Clarabelle and Millie were little girls. And the mother, uh, Winnie, was in --

KAREN BREWSTER: Did she go to Sitka? DELOIS BURGGRAF: In Sitka.

And at some point, Bishop Gordon was coming in. Now, like, Winnie wanted the children to be put in the mission, but the mission had a policy of not taking kids under eight. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, they’re too little, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, anyhow, when the mi -- the Bishop Gordon was visiting the hospitals, I guess he must’ve been in Sitka. She was on a table for some reason in examining room or something, and he come in to say hello to her.

And she beg him, "Please take my kids." KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he explained, well no, we have a policy. She got off of that, got on her knees, and begged him. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Take my girls.

And he did. It was hard on them. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They were so little. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They were just little kids.

I mean, really, what a shock to be pulled out of Minto. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But that’s how they -- the Shinaa (sp? maybe the Athabascan name that became anglicized into their last name "Charlie"?) then were raised in the mission for their early years.

And then, when -- oh gosh, they were -- I mean, she was in the hospital five years. She’s one of them that lived. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: A lot -- Half of them that went in did not come out alive.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. So the first meeting in Nenana, earlier in ’62, I think it was, I don’t know -- BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- March-April, whatever it was.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Nah, that wouldn’t have been ’62. That've been ’59. BEAR KETZLER: No, no, the first -- KAREN BREWSTER: No. BEAR KETZLER: First --

KAREN BREWSTER: There was a first -- BEAR KETZLER: -- meeting to organize the Tanana Chiefs meeting. DELOIS BURGGRAF: The first meeting --

KAREN BREWSTER: You guys had some meeting in Nenana. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Before the Tanana one. BEAR KETZLER: Yep. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: And I had it as earlier in --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That had to be when I was pregnant with Stephanie.

KAREN BREWSTER: I have that it was earlier in ’62, but it could’ve been ’61. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, it was earlier. It was ’59. BEAR KETZLER: Hm-um.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Rog -- Well, wait a minute. Yeah, ’59 in Nenana. Then in ’60 -- ’59 was -- it was like November or something. Like I say, Kay came down in the -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah, that was -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- the holiday. BEAR KETZLER: That’s later, yup. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: During the holiday.

KAREN BREWSTER: So that was the first thing. With -- And then what -- Then you had --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then the second one was in February with Minto. KAREN BREWSTER: Right, ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That is ’60. KAREN BREWSTER: ’60. Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: 1960. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. And then, what --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, the next one, and that’s when Mary Alice Miller -- BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, and then they had the next one in March. That’s when about nine villages came to that one, and that’s when they remembered about Nucha’a’lawoya. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Right. That’s the one she's referring to.

KAREN BREWSTER: And that’s the one I’m asking about. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. KAREN BREWSTER: That was in -- Do you remember? Was that sixty --? DELOIS BURGGRAF: In March. KAREN BREWSTER: March. Was ’61? ’62?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, it had to be the same year. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: So ’62? BEAR KETZLER: Yep. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, then, ok. BEAR KETZLER: It seems like late March or April (hard to hear as he gets talked over) DELOIS BURGGRAF: Then when Kay must’ve come down in ’60.

Maybe I was pregnant with Stuart. I was pregnant. I’m always pregnant.

KAREN BREWSTER: I love how you said, that’s how you delineate time is who I was pregnant with. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, and already I’ve got the two kids messed up here, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: They’re too close together.

So anyway, this March meeting in Nenana. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Who -- who were -- who came together and why?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, it was held in Frank Alexander’s house, former chief, ’cause like I say, the chief of Nenana did not want to touch the issue. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh.

KAREN BREWSTER: You said nine villages.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And nine villages. And it was Arly Charlie (sp?) from Tanana.

Um, of course, Minto was there.

KAREN BREWSTER: Was that Richard Frank? DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, Richard never came. And I’m not -- that does not discount him. KAREN BREWSTER: No.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh, ’cause Richard spoke at -- come to Fairbanks from Nenana. KAREN BREWSTER: He came in later?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, you know, like I say, at times, I mean, Richard -- and there’s another part of the story that you don’t even have yet. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But anyway, back to -- KAREN BREWSTER: So Tanana, Minto. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Who was present. Oh god bless. Oh, man.

BEAR KETZLER: What are you trying to think of, the -- the delegate from -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: -- Minto? 01:16:04]DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, like I say, the nine people that came to the -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Now, I did not attend that meeting. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I was not there. It was held at Frank’s house, and Grant Newman took the notes. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Grant Newman, um, was only just peripherally involved, but, like I say, I remember him because he took the notes. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he ended up working -- the last we heard of him, he was working as a -- in IRS. And he had grown up -- he had gone to two meetings.

And the funny thing I remember is -- because he was raised back East in a Jewish neighborhood. He wasn’t Jew, but he was raised in that influence.

And every time we had a meeting, you know, my -- you know, ’cause I had to feed these people after. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the easy thing to do -- ’cause you had, you know, the wood and coal stoves, ok. And, of course, it’s cold weather, ’cause they’re in November or December or February, or whatever.

So each time, I would make this big pot of rice in a roast pan and broth and onions and then pork chops on top. Stick it all in the oven, and then go to the meeting, you know, a couple hours, and then walk home. And then pull this big pot -- you know, this roast, and then set out the plates, and by that time, the other people had come. You know, Kay and Grant Newman, whoever came down from Fairbanks, and you’d feed them.

And Grant, growing up in a Jewish neighborhood, kind of had an attitude toward pork. And the next time, and the next meeting, he got the same menu. And that’s when he acknowledged to me that, you know, he's -- he, you know. But he was hungry. I mean, he ate, you know. Like I say, even if you --

KAREN BREWSTER: And it’s polite.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But -- and he acknowledged, he does have this attitude toward pork. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I understood it, because I know -- You know, myself in the Native world, there’s some women in the villages will eat bear meat. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But some villages, it’s taboo for a woman. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. It’s not allowed. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. And so, like I say, I'm aware of, you know, certain attitudes, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Well so, that March meeting, you weren’t there. I’ll ask Al about it. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And yeah, Al would know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, Al would know more a memory of that. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: But the idea of that was to start planning and organizing?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, right, it was -- No, the idea of for it come out of the Minto. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: There was Nenana and then Minto meeting.

Nenana meeting, and that is when those guys, that Robert Charlie, who was Minto, was on his way to Minto. But he’s married to a woman in Tanacross. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he was with David Lawrence. And they saw the lights in the Native hall and caught the tail end of the first land meeting. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Do you think anybody else, and -- and he said, "Well, Minto." KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, well, you think that --? Yes. And so, that was the February meeting. And that’s when Mary Alice Miller -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- and Tom Snapp were present. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, that led to the notion of maybe other villages would be interested. And that led to the March meeting.

And that meeting is where the memory -- and, of course, I’m sure Minto are the ones that brought it up about the traditional congressional site, where they congressed was Nuch’a’lawoya site. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Which meant where the two rivers meet. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, so that is why that got selected. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And how.

KAREN BREWSTER: Great. Thank you. Now we’ve got the -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: All the needle here. KAREN BREWSTER: All those little pieces. DELOIS BURGGRAF: The needle and the thread. Yes. Yes. KAREN BREWSTER: Great. That puts it all in -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: -- an organized way.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, ok, now we need to back up because Iñupiat Paitot. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. That was in ’61. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Got into it. Why the -- before that first chiefs’ meeting.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Iñupiat Paitot was November 1961, according to my notes. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That was -- Charlie was at that meeting. KAREN BREWSTER: Your dad Charlie? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Charlie Purvis, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, uh.

KAREN BREWSTER: I don’t know how much you -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: But before, see -- ok, now we’re -- we’re into ’60, ok? KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then in ’61, uh, like I say, the Project Chariot thing got Howard Rock and LaVerne Madigan up north. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I cannot tell you how they heard about us. I cannot tell you how.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Did -- Had they heard about you? Or you heard about them? Maybe Al -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: That part I don’t know. KAREN BREWSTER: Al might remember that. DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause Charlie lived in Fairbanks. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause Charlie was at the Iñupiat Paitot. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, which is in Kotzebue. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And there was --

KAREN BREWSTER: Was it in Kotzebue, or was in Barrow? I think it was in Barrow.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, they organized it in Barrow, but I know Charlie attended Iñupiat Paitot meeting that was held in Kotzebue.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I have in my notes that in October of 1962, so that would’ve been after the first chiefs’ meeting. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, maybe there was -- KAREN BREWSTER: There was a Kotzebue conference on Native rights, which was different from Iñupiat Paitot, which was in ’61.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, they called it Iñupiat Paitot, that meeting. KAREN BREWSTER: Maybe it was a -- the --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, you know, like a -- there, ok, the -- oh god, I don’t remember if Howard Rock was at the first chiefs’ meeting. Do you remember? KAREN BREWSTER: Yes, he was. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He was. That’s what my memory.

KAREN BREWSTER: I think there’s a picture of him. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. KAREN BREWSTER: At that ’62.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, so maybe that is when we first hear about Paitot. And that’s -- uh, ok, yeah. It had to be. It had to be, because before our first meeting, Kay came to Nenana. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And like, you gotta back up a little and understand. Charlie’s world was different than my world. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He’s in contact with Kay, who’s at the university.

KAREN BREWSTER: He’s in -- he's in Fairbanks by this point? DELOIS BURGGRAF: He’s in Fairbanks. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He lives here. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And there’s no road between Nenana and Fairbanks yet. You gotta understand. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Just the railroad. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, a CAT trail. Winter road.

KAREN BREWSTER: Was the -- was the railroad going? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, railroad. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Railroad, always. But anyway, there’s no --

You know, like I say, the Fairbanks had their world. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Nenana had their world. And unless you got on a train or a plane in the winter, or, which was rarely by that time, dog team. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But I mean, dog team was still used.

I remember, um, oh what’s his name? Mm, mm, mm. Jimmie. Andy Jimmie used a dog team, because it was 60 below, and the planes couldn’t fly. To bring a sick child from Minto to Fairbanks.

He used dog team in 60 below weather to save a child’s life. I remember him doing that. And he must’ve had to break trail, too.

Because, like I say, you know, before -- there’s a certain period where dog teams were still pretty used when I first come to Nenana and the trails were still there. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh.

BEAR KETZLER: Snowmachines didn’t come in until the early '60’s. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, snowmachines weren’t even in the picture at all. KAREN BREWSTER: Early 60’s, right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, uh, like I say, I forget what year there was the CAT trail. KAREN BREWSTER: From Nenana? DELOIS BURGGRAF: From Nenana to Fairbanks. And um. KAREN BREWSTER: So, um --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that, I don’t know. God, I mean, I don’t know how to put it. I forget when they put the ferry in. Do you remember the ferry?

KAREN BREWSTER: Across the -- before the bridge was built across the Tanana? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. Because they built Clear (Air Force Station, now Clear Space Force Station). KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Remember? KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then because of Clear, then they put the ferry. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then there was more of a year-round road. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean --

BEAR KETZLER: I remember my first trip, I think, going to Fairbanks on that old CAT trail was with Uncle Hank -- or Dan, in that pickup truck. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Remember, I was -- you were riding behind, and I was jumping on the seat, and you said I jumped all the way. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, and Dan was, yeah, that you bounced the whole time. BEAR KETZLER: Bounced the whole way to Fairbanks. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: Those old pickup trucks, and all -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And what year might that’ve been? DELOIS BURGGRAF: You were a little guy. BEAR KETZLER: Probably ’60, you know, ’60, '61, somewhere around there. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, you were maybe three or four. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh, so. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Not -- not earlier than ’59.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So yeah, I mean, bringing up the Iñupiat Paitot. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, yeah, and timing. KAREN BREWSTER: Was -- was -- Well, the timing isn’t -- I can figure that out. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. I just want to clarify. Ok, back to Charlie attended. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. First of all, it was not a organization created by the Iñupiat. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, the Point Hope people had called. You know, contacted Howard (Rock).

And I don’t know how they got a hold of him, because like I say, we’re talking a whole different technology -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- and time. Whatever we had in Fairbanks, Nenana, was way before what they had in Point Hope. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: How they got a hold of Howard when they heard, and how in the hell they even heard that they wanted to drop a bomb in their harbor.

And they contacted Howard, and then fortunately Howard was in New York with this little outfit called an Indian -- BEAR KETZLER: Association. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, Indian -- Association for American Indian Affairs (AAIA), which nobody up here had ever heard of, that I’m aware of, at that era. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: In the meanwhile, um, she (referring to LaVerne Madigan of AAIA) comes in with Howard, finds out at Point Hope what’s going on. (sigh) And then comes to Barrow, and they create -- and they gave a name for it.

And they kind of appointed people to -- you know, I don’t know if Howard helped her appoint. Ok, they had a meeting.

And Iñupiat Paitot means “people’s heritage.” KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And to talk about people’s heritage.

And that meeting, then, they had another one in Kotzebue. And it might’ve been like a year later. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause I do know, they met in Barrow. They came down and met with us before our land claim meeting in Tanana.

Kay knew that we had that meeting in March. And I would say they came down, maybe April.

And that was Guy Okakok, who was a reporter for Barrow with -- to -- he sent in, I think, a weekly column to the News-Miner (Fairbanks Daily News-Miner newspaper). KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Howard Rock, and Kay. And LaVerne Madigan.

That’s the first time I met LaVerne. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, we just kind of met. We didn’t really talk land claims.

You know, it was -- I don’t know exactly what, why they came down and came to my house. Maybe they met with your dad somewhere.

’Cause I just remember meeting them, and -- and then I remember -- What I distinctly remember, is, as they’re going out the door to leave, which they being Guy Okakok and Howard Rock and LaVerne.

(speaking in hushed voice) "Kay, they might be able to help fund us with Tanana Chiefs." And, you know, money was oh, so crucial. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean none of us, none of us had money. Uh, villages, and that -- cash was just --

If it wasn’t for Coghill’s credit, and I’m not kidding you. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, at the store. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: We could not have done land claims. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: If it wasn’t for Coghill’s credit. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause we had no money.

In the summer, we’d try to earn enough money to pay the bill, you know. And that’s -- that’s -- BEAR KETZLER: Eventually did. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, we always paid the bills. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But -- KAREN BREWSTER: But as you say -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: But I mean -- KAREN BREWSTER: -- everybody. I mean, you mentioned -- you know.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They carried us as far as our family. You know. And they carried the whole town. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And like I say, later on -- And I know, it’s only -- I know it, because their dad worked for them. Four years in a row, that family mortgaged their home with the bank in order to buy winter supplies to feed all of us. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They asked us to try to keep our budgets within twenty-five dollars a week. Period. And I did.

I mean, I knew they were burdened. I knew. You know what I mean. But most people didn’t know that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Lots of Campbell soup. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the only reason I know it -- KAREN BREWSTER: Lots of Campbell soup.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I know it is because his dad worked at Coghill’s part time. It was not a full time. He just happened to be working there.

I don’t know why he was helping Bob, but anyway, the accountant was down. And the accountant was hollering at Bob. You are not a non-profit organization! You've got to -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, that’s -- I mean. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. And -- and during that, somehow Al --

KAREN BREWSTER: As you say, all of the -- all of you in those early days who were so involved with land claims, you did it out of pocket, and there wasn’t money, which makes it even more amazing. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, it is amazing. KAREN BREWSTER: Because there wasn’t the money.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t know how we did it. And like I say, I know Charlie sold the land in Kansas. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s part of the money he got to buy -- to rent that plane for that first trip. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: From when he sold the land in Kansas.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Well, and then, you mentioned Grant Newman, and um. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Grant, I don’t know how they picked him up. KAREN BREWSTER: And you've talked about Kay. But they -- they formed the Alaska Native Rights Association?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Indian Rights Association. IRA. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, Alaska Indian Rights Association. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don't know why -- Which is like the Irish Republican Army. No, no, no. KAREN BREWSTER: No.

So that was your dad, Charlie, and Kay and Sandy (Jensen) and Grant? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, I don’t think Kay was that involved. They pulled her in because I don’t know how the heck Roger -- I mean, I knew -- Why am I saying Roger? (her husband's name is Roger)

I knew that Charlie knew her from her husband. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That in the Alaska Independence Party. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right.

So -- and he knew that she had come to Fairbanks so she could get a teaching degree. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that -- KAREN BREWSTER: After he died.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And -- and he knew where she lived. And I -- I -- but she was so busy. She had a child. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Her youngest son, to still -- was a teenager, and had to provide, and uh.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. But so they formed the IRA?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So Charlie somehow, and I don’t know who the "they" would be. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. I know it was Charlie.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I know it was Charlie, and who he would’ve -- KAREN BREWSTER: And what about your -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- had to call it a "they." KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, I -- I say, I know -- I -- the names I’ve seen --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause I wasn’t ever -- I never attended an Indian Rights Association meeting. KAREN BREWSTER: You -- ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I have no idea.

KAREN BREWSTER: But do you know why your dad got started to -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, he was -- oh god -- KAREN BREWSTER: Was that like, for -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- we are really jumping ahead. KAREN BREWSTER: I know. I know. BEAR KETZLER: No, we’re not.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. ’Cause in the middle here. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In the middle.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I was wondering when the IRA was born. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Here is this -- here’s this farm boy. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He’s seen people in hunger and starvation. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He knows their culture and pretty blown up. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So he urged them. And this is way before land claims. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh.

Mm, but not totally way before Al Starr. He’s introduced to Al Starr. Introduced to the concept. Promised Al he’d do all he could to help.

In the meanwhile, though, another avenue he was going on was getting individuals to home -- file homestead. BEAR KETZLER: Native allotments. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Native allotments? DELOIS BURGGRAF: No. KAREN BREWSTER: No. Before Native allotments? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Homestead. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Homestead. Not a Native allotment. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the reason, because the Native allotment is under the Department of Interior. You are regulated by the Department of Interior with a Native allotment.

Number one, you gotta get permission from them if you want to sell it. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because that’s under the reservation system. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. In the meanwhile, homestead, get clear twenty acres, file a homestead.

And also, he created a corporation, and I saw it. The credentials. You know, remember how when you’re selling stock? Your stock. Ok. I remember seeing that whole book, and the --

Anyway, it was going to be not money, but sweat equity or assets would count as ownership of stock. Ok. And he was able to -- ok. Helen Williams. Helen and Nat Williams. He got them to file. BEAR KETZLER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He got one or two Minto people to file. And I don’t remember their names.

BEAR KETZLER: The way he described it to me, once he filed, a couple other people started coming to him.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then I think maybe, Andy Nicholai and uh, Amelia, maybe, were filed. And he filed. Um, and I think he got Frank Alexander to file, too. Ok. So.

This is, uh, I don’t know when he pulled that together. Maybe ’53, '54, before I’m married. But I’m not sure even though I lived at home. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He had his life. I had my life. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, even though we're --

KAREN BREWSTER: Do you remember the name of this corporation? DELOIS BURGGRAF: No. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, he incorporated, and that was his notion. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And in the meanwhile, I got married. Worked one year, on the docks, the first year we’re married.

Then we went to Ferry for the winter. Came back. That’s when they heard that your dad had studied accounting.

And I’m pregnant with you. Mm. I’m not sure if your dad worked as a bookkeeper on that, when I had you as a baby, or was it the next year? I’m not sure when that happened.

BEAR KETZLER: I think it was the next year.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I suspect that, too. I suspect he was a dock worker. And in the meanwhile, Charlie is up there doing that thing with his corporation. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because by the time Alec is born, we were up there. We being you, remember Nat Williams? BEAR KETZLER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He’s two years old. Two and a half, when we moved up about August.

And I had Roger, and I had Alec. Three -- three kids under two years. Well, two years old. KAREN BREWSTER: Three boys under two.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Three boys, and all -- Like I say, he’s two and a half. And then Alec was born in May, so he’s about three, four months, you know.

And um, of course, we’re living in the tents. And now, Al never filed, but we were up there, number one, living off the land so we wouldn’t be living off of Coghill.

And, you know, the site halfway between Nenana and Fairbanks? You been down that Nenana-Fairbanks highway?

KAREN BREWSTER: On the road? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: When you go about halfway, you’ll see a building -- BEAR KETZLER: Just before Skinny Dick’s. KAREN BREWSTER: Skinny Dick’s. Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, just before, yeah, ok.

That’s the only place that has water. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In that area. That’s where Charlie had people file. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. And his vision was the river’s about three miles away, and I forget how far the railroad tracks were. Maybe a mile away. And then there’s the highway. Three trans -- three transport areas. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And water.

Anyway, why am I telling you this story? Oh, mostly because of the corporation.

And that is, uh, that’s the year that that next-door house burned, when those three kids burned up. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that is when it got -- oh, dropped down twenty or something below in October. And we're -- Oh, anyway, it was really cold, and we were in a horrible army tent. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Those poor army people.

Hon, oh, white (wall) tents are ok to live in in the winter. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But not an army tent.

Anyway, we ended up having to load up you kids, and all of us went in and planted ourselves in Mom’s house in Hamilton Acres. And it’s a good thing. Um, um, oh god.

KAREN BREWSTER: This somehow is leading us to the Indian Rights Association?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, and I never went to any meetings. But in that period, around that time, and, of course, the union thing is still ongoing. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, of course, we eventually moved into one of those little cabins. That one-room cabin. BEAR KETZLER: Here in Fairbanks. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Here in Fairbanks for the winter. The rest of the winter.

And we spent two winters there. We’d go back to Nenana in the summer. The strike was still going on.

And Charlie was doing that, and they -- and Nat Williams got TB. So he inherited Helen. He had to help provision Helen. Supplement food, you know, like oatmeal and stuff like that, so she could stay on her homestead.

At some point, though, she left for a period of time, maybe went to Nenana. And a family filed on her claim using that she hadn’t proved up on it in the approved times.

And that forced Charlie to dig in law, which he did. And, of course, from that homestead status and jurisdiction of law, thanks to Al Starr, a hint of something called aboriginal rights.

Then he had to dig into law of the US and educate himself on aboriginal law. And if that crucial thing, the worst thing that could’ve happened, is the best thing. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That is why the Chinese know, bad news is always opportunity. That’s what that symbol stands for.

’Cause that forced him to do what he wouldn’t have bothered doing. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he become pretty well educated in aboriginal law. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he secured her land, 160 acres, under allotment status. She didn’t lose it. That’s why they still have it. So that’s been a lot of time fighting for that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But then, he got educated. And, of course, he’s got that other organization going up here. He educates himself. He educates them. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Kay then needed a thesis. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yes. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so, she knew where to start digging. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: So anyhow, hon. Like I say, there’s just so much --

BEAR KETZLER: Do you have a copy of that thesis? KAREN BREWSTER: The archives has a copy. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, they do. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: These -- these individual people. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Who were nobodies, no status, some of them very unschooled. Which in the white man’s world, if you’re uneducated is their word.

It means somehow, you don’t know nothing. You’re a blank sheet. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You’re whatever. And anyhow. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it's as you said --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But he always knew how to weave in and use them educated, credentialed people. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah.

Well, you said -- you said to me on the phone yesterday something that was very important, I think. That it shows that everybody, you know, you make a -- everybody can make a contribution.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Everybody was so valuable. KAREN BREWSTER: Make a contribution. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Kay was so valuable. She had nothing.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And that you think, "I could do anything." DELOIS BURGGRAF: Sandy. Sandy Jensen. Yeah. And that teacher, that one teacher. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Never discount your influence. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s it. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Never, ever. Whoever you are, be you. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Be your truth.

KAREN BREWSTER: And that every -- there were all these -- everybody made some little thing, and it all adds up. DELOIS BURGGRAF: One little -- one little --

Yeah, this person, that little school teacher, does not know she led -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- to a path that become ANCSA. KAREN BREWSTER: Yep. Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know what I mean? And Charlie’s little corporation. He had a -- and hon, he never connected it. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He never connected the dots. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, really? Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Until some point after land claims did he see, oh my god, corporation all over. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, you know, that was -- you know, he had never, ever -- like I say, now, there’s a later point before -- like when Kay, you know, at some meeting, I don’t know, Al maybe knows the details of what meeting that was, which forced Kay then to agree or maybe Sandy typed it, I’m not sure.

At one point, Sandy got fired by the Association of American Indian Affairs. Now Sandy -- Kay is going to be a teacher. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Sandy. Where the hell did Candy (says Candy but means Sandy) get involved? Must’ve been the Indian Rights Association. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: She must’ve gone to that.

And uh, I think she was at the second chiefs’ meeting, not the first. ’Cause Clarabelle was the secretary at the first one. So Sandy may have come down to the second Tanana Chiefs meeting in the role of secretary. I know she was there.

And uh, she was in that meanwhile, served as that liaison from Al Ketzler. Needed to send letters to the Association of American Indian Affairs. He’d communicate with Sandy what his concern was. You know, over the phone.

Sandy’d whip up the letters and the communication, and, of course, Al'd get the letters. And so, Sandy was that little Fairbanks conduit for these communications.

KAREN BREWSTER: So how come he was having Sandy do that, and you weren’t doing that?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Sweetheart, I am -- got five kids. I’ve got -- you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, you were so active early on. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I am not -- I’m not in Fairbanks.

And I couldn’t conduit with the Fairbanks people. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know?

I cannot, you know, transportation. We didn’t have a car. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know. I mean, we’re -- we're almost isolated. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: With our little lack of money, lack of the road. The bridge wasn’t built 'til --

KAREN BREWSTER: It just shows how important those allies were. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, like I say, those little -- you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, a widow. And she was probably getting, I don't -- Al would maybe know how much. But it was a meager stipend. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But it meant something for her. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, so she did -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause she was a widow.

KAREN BREWSTER: She did get a little money? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. She was a widowed woman.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, you talk a lot about your dad, Charlie’s, role and involvement. What about your mother? Was she involved at all?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: My mother was a victim of all of it. And I’m not kidding you. In the sense that, oh hon.

KAREN BREWSTER: You said they spoke a different language. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, spoke a different language. And my mom -- BEAR KETZLER: She tolerated it, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: But she was not involved at all? DELOIS BURGGRAF: She not -- periph -- hon, she was involved because she's married to my damn dad. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that is why she didn’t even -- You know, that’s their involvement.

And I mean, hon, she had resentment. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because she would’ve liked him to be putting the energy he had into her family. She had three more children.

I’m out of the picture. I’m -- I'm married. I got my own world. KAREN BREWSTER: Were you the oldest? DELOIS BURGGRAF: I’m the oldest.

So -- and my sisters were five and six years younger. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And my brother's thirteen years younger. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And she would’ve loved to have had a fine Fairbanks house. I’m not saying a mansion. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But definitely an upgrade from where she was living in, there in Hamilton Acres, which was a --

He acquired a lot in Hamilton Acres at the -- close to the Trainor Gate area. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And hauled in some thing --

Well, he didn’t haul it in, but some of his carpenter coworkers had got a surplus building at the base. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they hauled it in. And I don’t think it was on a foundation or anything.

And then Mom wanted out of Nenana in ’56. I married in ’55. Well, she left a year later of Nenana.

And these carpenter friends, three of them, had acquired that house, and they wanted six thousand dollars for it. Now Dad got mad at her, because I think he told her to offer four thousand. That it wasn’t worth six. Or maybe he told her to offer three. Maybe he figured they should each get a thousand and that’d be fair.

But anyway, she didn’t argue with him ’cause she didn’t feel she had anything to negotiate. And she paid the whole six thousand for it. And I mean, it was a surplus building.

And it did get hooked up to sewer and water. She did have running water. That was an important upgrade for her. BEAR KETZLER: It was a nice place. KAREN BREWSTER: Yes. BEAR KETZLER: Nice place to me, anyway.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, I mean, like I say, hon, I mean, everybody has their standards. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And she was used to much better quality life. Charlie, hon, you cannot understand his hillbilly world. He really wasn’t a hillbilly.

Like sixty miles south was the real hillbillies.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, right. You had said that the last time. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I now know why they called it hillbilly. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I mean, to grow a farm on -- when your land is perpendicular. KAREN BREWSTER: But so, yeah -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, so.

KAREN BREWSTER: So, your father’s focus on land claims took away from the family? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: And she did not like that. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Time, energy. KAREN BREWSTER: And money. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And even money. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yes.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so that was hard on your mom? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, he was heavily -- heavily involved right up until he left in ’68. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, uh -- KAREN BREWSTER: And did your parents -- BEAR KETZLER: It was like his life.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, did they divorce? Or they stayed together?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They never divorced. There’s -- from ’68 on, they never lived under the same roof. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But they never divorced.

They are not Catholic. I have no idea how to explain their marriage except they were both forced to it. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because they got pregnant with me.

And, of course, my mom -- I wasn’t her favorite daughter because -- KAREN BREWSTER: Because you were like -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- I got her in all this trouble.

KAREN BREWSTER: But you were like your dad? As you said -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I spoke his language. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And you said --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I would stand up to him, and if he threw a sword this way, I could -- (sound effect) that way, and man, we could spar.

He loved me because I could argue with him.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, well, yeah, it’s interesting how, uh, all of this activity affected people’s families and the other members of the family. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s kinda why I was asking.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But yet my mom was very full of grace. He had these Indian meetings, Indian Rights Association, at her house.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And so she fed everybody? BEAR KETZLER: And she fed everybody.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And she gave them tea and coffee and endured.

And then one day, like uh -- I forget, was it first chief meeting or second chiefs meeting? We -- I guess it’s the first one, ’cause the plane come in with a bundle of newspapers from the News-Miner. And in the News-Miner headlines was that the Indian, you know -- that’s how they put it. I still hate that word.

Anyway, were being spoon-fed at Tanana. Or something like that. And anyway, mocking the meeting and whatever.

And, of course, at the same time, that’s about the time when the church was blasting the meeting, and anyway -- which is a whole ’nother story.

But anyway, we’re at that -- we hadn’t left Tanana. "We" being the whole delegations, you know, from the villages. Saw these headlines and were pretty incensed.

And we had to get on the plane, so we agreed we’d have a meeting in Fairbanks to respond. Well, of course, the meeting was held in Mom’s house. She had a rather large living room in that house.

And she comes home. She’s worked as a maid from -- at the Westmark? KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It wasn’t the Wes -- it’s Traveler’s Inn in those days. KAREN BREWSTER: Traveler’s Inn, right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And opens her door after working all day, and there’s about twenty, you know, indigenous people in her living room. Cause some of them had to leave. They had connecting flights. Once we landed in Fairbanks, they couldn’t -- they all had to get on other planes to get back to the village.

And anyway, at least a couple of reporters. I think Tom (Snapp) was there. BEAR KETZLER: Tom was there, yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, having this meeting, responding to the News-Miner. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, my poor mother walks in the door after a all of day’s work, and this is what -- yeah. I mean, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: And --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, I can understand exactly.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, I can, too. Was she gracious, and she made tea and coffee?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah, she act like it was no big deal. I mean, you know. And, I mean, god.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it must’ve been hard.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don't know -- She probably didn’t have a seat to sit down on, you know? But, uh. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, I mean it -- oh my god.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so, I don’t know if I’m jumping ahead by -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: But anyway. KAREN BREWSTER: -- getting us to the ’63 meeting.

Bear, did you have something? You wrote down a few things.

BEAR KETZLER: Well, I was, um, these are, like, Charlie Smith. You know, when I met -- or communicated with him. He’s an old, old timer was my growing up. I don't know --

KAREN BREWSTER: He was in Nenana? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. If he made it to 90 or whatever, but he, um, had a lot of stories about my grandma and stuff.

And this kind of goes back to the time of the different laws that changed. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: ’Cause he would go to -- he would get -- he would kill a moose out of season, and he would get picked up by the Fish and Game, and he'd get shipped to Fairbanks to jail.

So he would be fed by my grandmother. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. BEAR KETZLER: Who was a matron at the jail. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

BEAR KETZLER: And so, he told everybody, "God, you know, go to jail. You get nice food. This lady, grandma, you know, Mrs. Purvis, Dorothea Purvis." So those are the kind of stories that I kind of grew up with.

’Cause he actually came to Fairbanks once. He said he was a little destitute, and he broke a window, knowing that he’d get thrown in jail and he would be -- have a place to stay for the winter. And have the food cooked by my grandmother.

The other thing I wrote down, Chief Andrew Isaac. Uh, I forgot what senator, but he went to Washington, DC, to testify. I think, in what was it, ’66, '67.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, like I say, Andrew -- the Northway people, you know, uh, Doris Charles and oh, her sister -- her daughter-in-law. BEAR KETZLER: Ruth Charles. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ruth, yeah. Ruth.

And were the spokespeople for Northway-Tanacross area. BEAR KETZLER: Right. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, after a couple years, then Andrew became the voice. Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: He came back in the picture, but he -- designated. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah. And so that’s kind of, like you say, into the later '60’s, the later part, uh-huh.

BEAR KETZLER: Right. ’Cause I think it might have been Senator Jackson, but, you know, when he testified, one of the comments by the senator was, you know, "Thank you so much for coming to testify." He said, "I did not realize there were even Native Alaskans in Alaska." KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

BEAR KETZLER: I mean, that’s how disconnected, you know, Congress, or some of the Congress members were. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: I mean, he made a definitely impression. I mean --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, that reminds me that that little film that was on the TV the other night. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: That Lowell Thomas film, that was in ’68 in Anchorage at some hearing. Interior Committee hearing.

And they mentioned that Chief Andrew Isaac talked, I think it was him, or Chief Northway, explained about what we now call subsistence. The traditional lifestyle. And how important the land is to the Native people.

And the comment was sort of like, yeah, but all those guys listening, they were guys, you know, it was just unfathomable to them. They had no concept. BEAR KETZLER: Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: So, I can see going to DC it would be even more so. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, just to get back.

KAREN BREWSTER: And the courage to get up to testify. That’s what, you know -- Somebody like Chief Andrew Isaac --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, hon, when Robert Charlie got up to speak at the first Tanana Chiefs meeting. I mean, Robert Charlie is not a shy man. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he was, of course, young man, you know. BEAR KETZLER: Very young. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He’s older than me, you know. BEAR KETZLER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Not by a lot of years, but I don’t know. Five, definitely five. Under ten. Between five and ten years older than me.

And he got up to speak for Minto. I mean, I just saw beads of sweat pop out on him. And, of course, like I say, knowing Native rule of tribal law and the status of showing respect, etcetera. And not confronting.

I mean, to do in the white man’s world, where you confront. And, you know, like I say, I mean, psychologically, how difficult that was. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. It’s another culture.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. And that’s why, when they arrest somebody, you’re taught when the Native law, you respect authority. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, under white man’s law, you don’t have to respect authority. You don’t have to -- you plead not guilty, you do -- you know, whatever. Ok. It’s so different. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But hon, this is the radical thing about Runnymede and that legacy, aboriginal law from Alexander the Great. (referring to signing of the Magna Carta that led to reduction of the power of royalty and led to more democratic forms of government) KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: To Runnymede. When those nobles said wait a minute, you’re gonna share some power.

To the time of common, when they threw out the kings, and they started cutting some heads off, changed the rules. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Where a man -- And there for a long time, a man, even law did not break into a man’s home. They would guard until finally the man would come out. He'd have to get food or provision or water.

But, you know, a man’s home used to be sacred even under western law.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, as you say, that -- that courage and -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that’s what I mean. KAREN BREWSTER: And going against the -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: It’s so against, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- cultural traditions. BEAR KETZLER: It's degrading, yeah. (hard to understand since he's being talked over)

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And like when Percy Herbert disappeared. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, he’s the one that disappeared? BEAR KETZLER: That’s the one I told you about. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He’s the one that disappeared.

And oh, call up and down the rivers 'cause he spoke out against Rampart. BEAR KETZLER: The dam. KAREN BREWSTER: About the dam? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: He was the most vocal. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: At the time. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, so the suspicion is --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So as far as they’re concerned, he got put down. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they’re -- KAREN BREWSTER: But by the Native people? DELOIS BURGGRAF: By the Native. KAREN BREWSTER: No, by the non-Native?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, no, not by the Native. But I mean, the Native people -- by the Native people, that was their beliefs. The whites put him down. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, I see. Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. That is -- we deal with that a lot.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Well, that’s what I say. I mean, it -- the whole land claims, early -- the whole period, but the early throughout all -- just --

Yeah, what it took for people to speak out and -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And hold the ground. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: And hold ground? DELOIS BURGGRAF: And hold ground. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: I don’t know how one explains that. I guess you have to ask the individual people.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, hon, you just try to get some white men together and go down and talk to Congress. How hard that is for them.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, and they had no money. I mean just -- and again -- I don't --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Even though they might have funds or whatever. You can hardly -- I can -- I’ve dealt with miners up here. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: In fact, that’s one reason my husband (Roger Burggraf) was attracted to me. He knew, and he would introduce me. Oh, she used to be married to Al Ketzler. As if I had some kind of connection, conduit, into shaping Congress up. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Well, you --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because they had problems with the -- ok, white man’s law. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: The miners up here.

And uh, I told him what they had to do. And you know what? They’re scared to.

I have lived with white men now longer than any -- any culture in my life, with white men. I am shocked at how afraid of their government they are. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. BEAR KETZLER: I see it all the time.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I am not kidding you. I am not kidding you. And this is what’s scary. I could -- I kinda, but I can’t really, but I kinda see why they thought Trump is a solution. Ah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, we’re not going to go there. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And we can’t go there. But like I say, I am -- I am blown away. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: By whites.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, but -- and I say, but -- just that -- that courage and determination. And I think the only answer is to ask the individual people.

You know, so I could ask, you know, why people were able to do what they did. And that’s a question for your dad. You know, because it is -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Right. KAREN BREWSTER: -- it is really amazing.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Like I say, hon, when -- oh man, when we filed that injunction on the pipeline, oh that was.

KAREN BREWSTER: What’s that?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh my god. That’s way later. That’s when we -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, that was the -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Filed the injunction on the pipeline.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, the land freeze and all that? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, land freeze. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, no, they -- well, it’s a long story, but -- KAREN BREWSTER: We haven’t gotten there yet. BEAR KETZLER: No.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, we ain’t even there, but -- you know, the -- of course, I mean, the blast and, you know, the reporters calling up, wanting to know, you know. And, of course, I mean, Al is just trying to live at home. He’s at home.

Anyway, um, picks up the phone, and ok, he’s -- you know, like with Bear, sitting there. And that phone conversation, I’d watch a huge bump come out. Maybe then another bump. And I mean, the stress.

KAREN BREWSTER: From the stress? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: The hives. KAREN BREWSTER: Hives? Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean it's --

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, he would break into hives?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Emil got to a point. Emil -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- could not fly on a plane to go to DC for meetings.

KAREN BREWSTER: Because of the stress, or --? DELOIS BURGGRAF: The stress.

It -- it -- a funny -- like my little daughter -- daughter-in-law. She wasn’t a daughter-in-law. She was Charlie Ketzler’s wife. KAREN BREWSTER: Sister --?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: My little Wilma, who is another crucial woman I haven’t got to. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And her, uh, what do you call it? Symptom of stress. Huh. She -- ok, number one, Wilma is this wonderful --

She’s Wilma Earhart Sunnyboy. Her mother was an Earhart from Tanana. Her father’s a Sunnyboy from Mary -- St. Mary’s. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And her mother and father met in Tanana, which they have their wonderful story, but anyway, they met in Tanana and married. And then moved to Nenana.

And Wilma was originally my sister’s friend, because they were the same age, five years younger than me. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they were little buddies. But then my sister moved to Fairbanks when my mom did.

And then, Wilma ended up marrying Dan Ketzler, my brother-in-law, kind of adopted son. Not formally adopted. He married the woman who had Charlie. But Charlie became a Ketzler.

Charlie is really a Gundrum (sp?). But the father was a Gundrum. But anyway, he, you know -- He become a Ketzler by way of osmosis. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. He’s adopted. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Adoption, kind of. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, of course, that’s a way a lot of kids ended up with a last name. KAREN BREWSTER: Yep. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. So anyway, Charlie Ketzler, and he married her.

And anyways, her and I have a whole separate story. But she got involved in land claims. And um, for her -- her -- and I don’t know what you’d call it. It’s stress related.

Um, manifested itself in fear of dogs. She’d see a little tiny Chihuahua or something, a block away, and get frozen with fear.

And this is a little woman. She’s na'er -- you know, her mother was smaller than her. And small. Like Elizabeth when she was a young one was cuter and just a small little thing.

And Wilma was short ’cause her father was short, too, but yet a strong woman. I mean, you know, not --

Like I say, anyway, she used to hook up dog teams. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: She hooked up dog teams. KAREN BREWSTER: And then she -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ran a dog team.

KAREN BREWSTER: Then she became afraid?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then would spot a loose dog or something, and she would become frozen. And that’s how it manifested for her. KAREN BREWSTER: Interesting.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Now I know two men, I can’t think of his first name. The last one is Don Peters. And uh, the last name was Walace. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And it wasn’t like Tim Wallis. He was a different Walace. It was a W-A-L-A-C-E. I forget his name. Your dad might remember his first name.

But both of them manifested, I mean, it was around this same time, but they got involved with land claims for about a year. And could not do it because their blood pressure and etcetera.

Anyway, what manifested was bloody noses. Huge bloody noses. The stress just -- just -- they couldn’t do it. I mean, they were only in for about a year, and not even deeply, compared to where Emil and -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- you know, your dad and stuff like that, you know.

And uh -- and um, oh god. And, you know, I'm -- a thought come to me, I wasn’t going to express it, but it’s worth expressing ’cause it hurts. They were on a front line. Emil. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Al Ketlzer, for years.

And they talk about Vietnam. There was no homecoming. Ho, ho, ho. Has Emil ever got a thank you? BEAR KETZLER: Probably not. KAREN BREWSTER: Well. BEAR KETZLER: I know Al, Senior, hasn’t.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. I think Emil and Willie (Hensley) and some of those people, now -- I don’t know if they’ve gotten a thank you, but now with these anniversaries, they -- BEAR KETZLER: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: -- at least get their names recognized. BEAR KETZLER: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: And they give speeches.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That don’t put any food -- KAREN BREWSTER: The Al Ketzlers DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- on the table. KAREN BREWSTER: No. And the Al Ketzlers and all these other people, not.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Like I say, hon, I don’t even know if they get that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: If they do, it’s kind of like, uh, Rasmussen. Years ago, when -- not Rasmussen. Amundsen? BEAR KETZLER: (inaudible) DELOIS BURGGRAF: Amundsen? KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And one of those other explorers.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, for the North Pole? Who gets the credit? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Well, no. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They -- they did this arduous thing, and there was no banquets for ’em. So anyway, they went back to Denmark and threw their own banquet.

And that’s what they need to do. They need to go throw their own banquet. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Well, you mentioned --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But, like I say, I mean, it’s just -- that is -- life get -- like -- you know, there is what I saw before. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That was horrible. And yet on the -- after, it’s just about as horrible. I mean, like I say --

KAREN BREWSTER: That’s a good -- a good thing to talk about. Yeah, what -- I don’t want to skip us ahead and make these big leaps, but --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I know. I know I’m waay, miles away now from the beginning. KAREN BREWSTER: But -- but exactly. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So all this effort for land claims and the passage of ANCSA. What -- what do you think of the results?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It’s almost -- it’s still horrible. And just as treacherous, just as treacherous as before.

And they don’t really understand various eddies and dynamics that seek to undermine. Ooh.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. I think it’s -- it's -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because -- BEAR KETZLER: -- a -- a lack of education, and they, you know, like -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: I would not -- BEAR KETZLER: Just going to anybody. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- call it education.

KAREN BREWSTER: Lack of whose education? BEAR KETZLER: The, um -- the leadership. Education of -- And this is all around Alaska.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, whites and Natives. Whites and Natives. The total ignorance of all of them. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because of the lack of education. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, 'cause like -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Even in the United States. Hon, you don’t understand. When you --

When I went to school, I learned about civics. Civics was a curricula. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They don’t even know the word civics in this country anymore.

White and Native and black don’t understand the rules of the game. And they don’t understand the procedure to play the game.

If you want to get in the -- you want to get in football, you gotta know the rules of the game. You gotta know the procedure to get in. You gotta understand the board.

They’ve got baseball, football, soccer ball, all mixed up and they call it politics. Hon, it’s insanity.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So what you’re saying, it’s not so much the law itself, but it’s how people -- BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- have been implementing it? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: And interpreting it?

BEAR KETZLER: Right. Right. I -- A couple of aspects, I -- probably by ’83 or '84, which is like ten years after -- a little over ten years after ANCSA, I interviewed, like, Ruth Charles. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: Almost on her dying bed.

And, you know, I -- I -- and -- and Chief Andrew Issac was there, as well. And their perception of what they were fighting for. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And to where it had come to. Um, was -- you know, that’s when I started recognizing, there’s a big difference here.

You know, and -- and it was just the way that a lot of it was that they felt just that the original kind of intentions and all the effort that went into it, it didn’t wheedle down to the people.

I mean, it -- you know, and then part of that is that the mechanism they picked with the corporations, and the lack of understanding of the corporations. You know, ’cause corporations, you can make change, and they -- they'd just seen corporations as unchangeable, you know, things.

You know, I remember Ruth was saying that, uh -- somehow the word got out in the Native community that Morris Thompson, who was the president at that time (of Doyon Ltd). Had just started become -- was just hired as president. And his salary was like $130,000 a year, and it was just blew her mind. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: Like, that’s not the Native way. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: That’s a lot of -- that could feed a lot of people in the villages. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: That could go help build schools and -- that was what was supposed to happen. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: And so, the older people that I’ve seen kind of thought that the leadership had lost its way.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yep, it was totally perverted. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so was the American way. The same perversions.

BEAR KETZLER: So I -- you know, and when I traveled downriver, like old Johnny Deacon, he was probably in his 90’s when I met him, he was raised in the mission in Holy Cross.

And his solution was, "We gotta build the missions again and get these kids to learn how to live off the land." How to grow potatoes.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, right. Get to real. Get real again. Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: Get back to real again. That’s what we need. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: We need -- Obviously, you know, he wasn’t sexually abused or nothing or he probably would’ve said that. Other villages I’d go to, I met sexually abused men. Um, and women. But anyway, that was his -- you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, he had been in the mission and had -- BEAR KETZLER: He was raised in the mission and he had learned how to do. KAREN BREWSTER: And had felt like it had been good for him?

BEAR KETZLER: He could raise cattle. He could raise horses. He could hunt. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: I mean, he had to do everything. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And he could plant potatoes. He was -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: They -- KAREN BREWSTER: Holy Cross, they -- Holy Cross planted a lot of potatoes.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Holy Cross Mission was pretty self-sustaining. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it was. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Using both worlds. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it was a pretty good --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The indigenous and the -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- agricultural world. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Um. BEAR KETZLER: That --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And about four little nuns ran it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. There was a priest there, I think, too, at some point. DELOIS BURGGRAF: There were priests, but the nuns are the ones -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- that were the major -- you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Now, I’m sure the priests worked outdoors with the boys, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But those little nuns kept them -- I think 40 girls or something. KAREN BREWSTER: I can’t remember. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t --

KAREN BREWSTER: There were a lot of kids there. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I wouldn’t know. I was not there.

KAREN BREWSTER: I wasn’t either, but I’ve -- I've interviewed people about it.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But well, I had one friend who was there, and I had a recent dialogue with her, and that’s a number she threw out.

There were four nuns keeping a track and managing in a very, never physic -- well, I don’t think she said physical. I don’t think she narrated -- whatever, there was a consequence. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But it was related to the inappropriate behavior. Whatever -- like, anyhow. Like, she was --

What was confusing, again, for me. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Coming back to the country and trying to sort it out.

The kids coming out of Holy Cross hated it. They considered it like a jail. They hated it. They hated it.

I meet her. She left and went to the Lower 48. I mean, not -- you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: We were opposite. I’m coming and living in Alaska. She goes to the Lower 48.

Years later, we meet, and she had this different posture about her Holy Cross experience.

And recently, just about four or five months ago, I had a chance to pin her down. And, well, you know, your narrative when you were a kid, and this --

And she said, what they taught her, her first thing, was stability. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: There was a consistency every morning. This was done. KAREN BREWSTER: A routine, yep. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And this, and it was --

The stability was created by you planting the potatoes, you fishing, by you sewing, by you -- made your uni -- you know what I mean? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But now there was in this current, um, narrative, also some resentments.

She knows of things that were given to be given to the kids that would be put over here for sale. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And these are things. And she said one time, a gift giver subverted the whole agenda. A whole big container of, uh, bubble gum. And each child was handed by this -- the bubble gum, and they got it. It didn’t get over here for sale. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, I see. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so, like I say, that was her only --

You know, but again, you know, cash is king. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Maybe they needed cash. I’m not gonna say I judge that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause I don’t -- I didn’t talk to the administrators.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, they probably did to run a mission. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I -- I -- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Can we take a little bit of a pause? DELOIS BURGGRAF: You need it. Yeah.