Bill: We're working with Arnold and Emily Brower and we're talking a little bit about the Chipp and Ikpikpuk Rivers on March 11th at their home. Okay. We're talking about some of the changes in the river. Arnold: Okay Iktuġvik site is one of those that should be right in here. Uh, I run across that old sites where there was some campsites and others in that area. And also over... Bill: Let's call this one AB-l. Wendy: Let's just use numbers Bill, I think we can just call it 2, if we use 1... Bill: I'm a little afraid to confuse it with the other numbers. Wendy: Okay. Bill: AB-1. Wendy: Okay. Bill: What do you call that site Charlie? I mean Arnold. I'm sorry. Arnold: This site I never have found the name for it, but it's part of the Chipp River. It's part of that recourse again where the Chipp River straighten out through here. But this is a very attractive site. It's a large site where a group of old campsites were. It's still useable today, I mean it's some old cellars and other that were there, they're still there. Now going up to this one, this, this portion here that goes into the lake and over there, the drainage also from the over, you know the flood area. And uh, right there on the bank is an old cellar ah, I've known, cellar. Some cellars and looks like it has some usage, but it's filled up it's ice filled whatever's in those I don't know I sure would like to dig in there and find out. Bill: We'll call that one AB-2. Wendy: Okay, Got it. Arnold: And then, right in this section there some old campsites too, but they're, what I found were just the stubble of nomadic, looked like panapkaaq. You know, tents soft, made by... Bill: Skin, willow? Arnold: Willows and skin and what left of them was just those uh ends, pointed ends. It was that, when you pull them out just to stuff them in there. They just look like, looks like sometimes ago there has been people living there, and I don't know how they left all those remains in there. Just... Bill: Where was that spot Arnold? Arnold: Right, right about in here. In that little bit high area. Bill: We'll call that AB-3. Wendy: Would those be the willow poles from like an ivrulik? Arnold: It's no, no it's not has to be deer skins or skins, light skins. Emily: Just like in that book. Arnold: Yah, something similar to that, but it's a very old site. That's what was blown up some uh, the cat trains and other's had gone through there once before, but we didn't know that they, they would be historic sites. But I'm just saying what I thought in there. Wendy: Sure. Arnold: On this - let's see, this section is an old camp right here, see. It's a sod house. And some, look like some leavings in there of a sod house, and uh...there was somebody living in it in 1937. Bill: We'll call that AB-4. Arnold: But how long it has existed there; but there was two old timers living there. I went through there driving a herd of reindeer about 1938. But they were really there with sod houses, some other, maybe cellar and stuff. And how many more housing were there before them I don't know. But this old couple was living there. Bill: Who was this couple? Arnold: Saġaaluuraq, Saġaaluuraq. Bill: Is there a name or that place? Arnold: Uh I, we call it Saġan's place. Saġan. Emily: Is that different than Ilavgaŋuluk? Arnold: That his parents, adopted parents. Emily: Is that the place they used to call Ilavgaŋuluk? Arnold: Yah, that's the last group people I see there were those. But whoever was there, I don't know, before them. That's right in this camp. Now, going back through here,this wasn't here at all when they lived there. This was a main river, 1937, 1938, and so this was just like that, it was. No drainage or anything. This was only a lake, uh, with a small stream going up through here. When they were living there.

Arnold: So the changes the recourses are taking place within that time period. Bill: So the changes you made came after 1937 or 1938? Arnold: When I come back from the service in 1940-1945 this was already a strong recourse, and this was already starting to take place. Bill: I see. The places you've marked. Arnold: Yah, so this was a new recourse actually. Now ah, going up with a canoe and a dog, ah... Bill: Pulling. Arnold: Power with a long line and dog, going up through here. Mostly all of these bends here on the west portion where there's better side, has an old campsite. Not ah, you know, just a low land mark where people had made sod houses one time. And a place where they dug into for storage,and some of those contained, at the time I was through here, was ivory sinkers. Bill: Net sinkers? Arnold: Taken out from mammoth tusks in various areas of these. I never take some, but I took some too, doggone, there I took some too, but I left some in place, but... Bill: That's the west bank of the Chipp? Arnold: Anywhere where there's a good deep section and a good place for a sod house where those camp sites look like they, they were people living there from long time ago. All the way up to that portion. This used to be cellar and that main portion of the historic site was right here. That a great gathering point one time, right here. Bill: Oh, the place we've marked L here. Arnold: Yah. Bill: What was that? Arnold: They call Aviullaavik, a great gathering place for fishermen. Subsistence fishing people. Bill: Oh. Arnold: They come from down on the coast here. From all over and camp right in that area because it was a choice, deep section in the river where eddy takes place and it's kind of a, a one of the best places, closest ones known to their homesites, I guess. And they escorted people to the cellars and sod houses, but they're made by willow and driftwood, little bit of this and that. They caved in again now. We went through there quite a few times because it's in beeline to our camp. Bill: What time of year would they gather there? Arnold: Fall and sometimes in s... gathered there during the fall, just before freeze-up, for subsistence fishing. And at times that, there were some homes there, old homes there where one or two families would stay up during the summer and continue to live all through the winter. Now around in '37,' 38, '39 up till time I was leaving in 1944, no not '44, that was in '43. Bill: Do you think it was much earlier too? Arnold: 1943 was the last time when I saw these old, old group of people gathering there. But before that, it's a history until this breaks through. Bill: Until that new break through. Arnold: This, leave this one and abandon this whole thing up to here. It's abandoned river. It's only used for spring breakup when the river fills up with water and its, it is used for drainage. That's the only thing it's used for during the spring breakup, is for drainage. But the historic sites are right there. It real old, it goes back I don't know how far. Now that goes into Charlie's camp and right in that area again I, I've seen some old ah, something, or those stubble. Where did I go? Right here, right in that section. There's some old stubbles again of, of those... Wendy: AB-5. Bill: That's AB-5.

Arnold: Panaapkaaka. At a time when I was going through there. Course I went through quite a few of those that I mentioned here pretty near every bit. This was a great, good one. And then going up through this river. Where's that little stream? Right here. What's them old, old site on this section of this river where and across the river where it looks like somebody had staked there from way back, too. It's a, I don't know how to put it, but we've seen some old marks man made objects in this area. But I never look closely enough to see what they are. Bill: We'll call that AB-6. Arnold: It's Quġannaq. Bill: That's AB-5. Wendy: Quġannaq. Arnold: Yah. Bill: Does that have a meaning Quġannaq? (Pause) Arnold: That's surprising. And then another one will get right here. Bill: We'll call that AB-7. (Pause) Arnold: There's an old sod house there which covers up Nat-.......there had been some older areas where we dig that down at the end; dig some of it. My kids does that anyway. Then going back there, this is my campsite right here number one. Right here, my campsite. Bill: We'll call that AB-8. Arnold: That Emily's, we call it Emily you could call that Emily. That's Emily's right across, the eighty acres straight across right here. Is a allotment. Okay? Eighty acre allotment right there course there's ... we improved it for Emily. Bill: AB-8. Arnold: But there's some history around here because we walk right through here we found some ivory, little ivory pipes, with a, I don't know how old that ivory pipe would have been. And we saw some old arrow pieces? so, you know, so... Wendy: Shaft pieces? Arnold: So that has a history. That, those were there. Some of those things stick into the ground with the arrowhead that looks like a piece of bone on the other side. And when you pull it out it looks like it's a rib bone or something that could be used for other, Emily call it heads. So we've seen those. And then again, in that same general area, again in this portion winding through some of that lakes, real salmon lakes, we found some more shells. Oh, I don't know what type of shells, but they were that long and copper. Looks like it's a big 22 short shell inside the water. I mean you could look at 'em it's clear, and we picked those up. So, that activity has been pretty much alive long time ago just to look around and see those things even in the water. So, so they must...my guess was that been a hunting area for a long time. And going around in here there was another one right here. And this one I know in that portion right here, was the... Bill: Call it AB- 9. Arnold: I wouldn't call it a settlement. But again, with those things that, that leave just those things in the ground. That's around, this is some of the things I look at because I pull them out while I was going to the edge of the river with dogs, going up in that area quite a few times. That mean that we don't want weakness in those because when you pull them out they're man-made because they're pointed with, four, you know. Bill: Yah, they're chips. Arnold: Chips. And they're about that big around when you get down to the root look like they're willow. Wendy: Look like they're cut with a knife or an axe or something like that? Emily: Maybe a saw... Arnold: But just a stub, so actually they were not pulled out; they were left there. And there's some old, like caribou stuff around. And I usually look back into the story my father made up of the sick flu people trying to get back to their homesites way up on the Chipp River inland area. And most all of them never made it back home. Died on the way. So this little things get back in my mind looking at those, now. This is not Aumalik river, this is different name. Id like to change that. Bill: Right. Arnold: Ah, right across this river, you gonna have to find what it says here. Let me see. There it is. It's the mouth of this river. I'm a little bit blind here. Wendy: Well these maps are very hard to read. I think it comes in right there. Arnold: No. It comes real close. Wendy: No. You're right, it comes in right there. Yep, there's a loop I didn't see. Arnold: It goes... Wendy: Yeah, yeah, I can see it. Arnold: It goes up like this see. Wendy: Actually I think there's another one there. Arnold: It goes pretty close to there. Wendy: Yeah. Arnold: And comes out here right across here. This, bend especially right on this side. Again, that looks like that has been a camping ground for a long time. Bill: Right here, eh? Arnold: Yah. Bill: Okay, we'll call that AB-10. Wendy: And what do you call this river? Arnold: That's Qaksrauġaġvik. Wendy: Okay. Arnold: That's not, Aumalik is up here. Bill: Right. 0kay. Arnold: That's Qaksrauġaġvik River. Wendy: That's what I was remembering, but I wanted to be sure I was right. Arnold: Yah, and I look at one of the changes that doesn't change nothing. Actually, somebody had put this name without even, maybe just by hearing. Maybe somebody that actually not familiar with that. Uh, that's the mouth of this river. Okay? Now, this is a historic site right... about right here, see? Now my, my allotment, which I had bought right from the historic site area all the way up to here, see. It's a 40 acre selection, it's got an airport and everything in it. Bill: That's what they call Chipp 9? Arnold: Chipp 9, I think yah, yah. The BLM had been there to mark it for my identification. But the historic sites are right there, and an old campsite right here and was duplicated again 19..., uh. They weren't there in 1943. Anyhow, while I was in the service and I come back, I saw a group of people make a camp there, but I...Right here. Bill: Uh-huh. Chipp 9. Arnold: But family a came from here, y na...., way up there and they had never migrated through here and come through this river. Bill: Through the Ikpikpak or the Mayuaġiaq? Arnold: Through here and then come through here, and migrated through these channels; go through here, and finally in high water, they move over to there, see. They move a long ways. Bill: Through those inland lakes and rivers, huh? Arnold: Yah...this. This a river, stream...This a river coming thru here. Bill: Where Lake (unclear) there,... Arnold: Yah it's pretty deep and goes all the way and empties into Tasiqpak area. Bill: What do you call that river there? Arnold: Ah, Piŋutuuq. Wendy: Piŋutuuq. Arnold: Wait a minute Piŋuġruk. Wendy: Piŋuġruk. Arnold: Piŋuŋġruk River. And then the Piŋutuuq is the one that comes from here, and I think that's the one right here. It's the Piŋutuuq River. It goes back into Chipp River. The delta has various names in there. This delta goes into various areas especially up to... (unclear). Bill: Let's make sure we have this river here. What was this one called? Arnold: Piŋutuuq. Bill: Okay. We'll call that one AB-ll. Wendy: AB-12.... Bill, we've used 11. Bill: No, I think we used that as Chipp. Wendy: Oh, okay you didn't put 11 on Arnold's allotment? Okay. Bill: AB-ll is going to be this river here, and we should do the name of that again. Arnold: Piŋutuuq. That means where those big uh, you know knolls. Bill: Knolls. Arnold: We call it Piŋuptaaq, Piŋutuuq they call it Piŋutuuq now. Bill: And this river that flows into up here? Arnold: Piŋuġruq, Piŋġruq. Wendy: Is that Piŋu the same thing that... Arnold: Piŋu. Wendy: Pingo? That geologist call a pingo - where the ice comes up. Arnold: No, it's a mound. Wendy: Okay. Arnold: It's not formed by ice. But it's in recognition of a mound, small mound. Maybe something about the size of this room and kind of fancy in, in it's style. Wendy: Okay. Bill: Where did that river come through here? This is it here? Arnold: No, that river goes back to here, see? Bill: Okay, okay. Arnold: Alright? Bill: So it doesn't go through this lake here? Arnold: No, it comes it goes back over to that area and goes back here. Wendy: Okay so that's Piŋutuuq. Arnold: Yah, that's Piŋutuuq. It goes right through here, okay? Bill: Okay, but there was another river that we were talking about. Arnold: Uh, Piŋuġruk is up to here. Bill: Oh. Arnold: Piŋuġruk is the one that you marked from, from this point... Bill: From Tasiqpak? Arnold: To this, to this lake. Bill: Okay. Arnold: And that's called Piŋuġruk. Bill: Okay, we'll call that AB-12. Wendy: Does that name have a meaning too? Arnold: Yeah, it's pertaining to those mounds where there's numerous of those. Wendy: Okay. Arnold: The meaning is numerous mounds on the banks of the river. They're not formed like a dune type mound. It's a different type of a...

Bill: Boy, that's a twisty river, huh? Arnold: Oh yah. I got a perfect map of part of that because my interest relates to area of travel and recognition. So, once when I was heading off from Barrow about two weeks ago on a real windy day right on a snowstorm type storm; I took off with my four boys to make it all the way to this camp. From Barrow to this camp. Bill: To Chipp 9? Arnold: And ah, you couldn't see nothing except by time and course of travel, to travel there. I thought I was going to hit this portion to camp. This portion here, cause it's a distance off, missed it and then missed it by, by here, and then we stopped here because I didn't want to go any further. I want to recourse in the morning, so we camped. Still didn't know where we were at. The next day I, I just reformed and go on in one mile circle and found out where I was. Because I have, I've walked this area on foot for seven years. That's the only reason why, why I can identify the country. So, it's helped to know the country, too. Bill and Wendy: Sure. Arnold: So, the boys were kind of lost but I took them right direct back home to the camp and they remember how we got in there because it was a real blizzard. And we crossed this river, we come into the airport and going right through the flags, you know, it's orange. And to right over to the house, all we see was the flags, and we ended right up at the house. Okay, that's where I ended up on my portion. But I have gone all the way up. I traveled a lot with Emily. Emily, huh?

Emily: Where's Charlie's camp? Arnold: Charlie's camp is right here, right here. Bill: Chipp 10? Arnold: Now let me put the historic site. Did Charlie put historic site in? Bill: Yes. Arnold: I don't know if he had gone there. He had took my word, I guess. Bill: I think that's Y isn't it. Wendy: Yah. Bill: Y, okay. Arnold: Let's see. On the bottom of that hill is an old site. Ah, it looks like it has two of those ah.... logs, must have been driftwood taken from the beach. So and taken up there I don't know what... Maybe those found from the river... Because right there you look at my camp, one day maybe you get there. We found some trees from up there, you know, from that come washing from permafrost? With stumps and roots and everything it traced up to that site. Wendy: Um, Um that's pretty far. Arnold: With roots side down for marker in the camp. So I imagine those people had found the same things I found too and used them for look like, for today's, you know. Bill: What do you call that site there? Arnold: Isuliumaniq. Bill: Right that's what he had, yah. Arnold: Isuliumaniq. Bill: And what does that mean? Arnold: It's, it is a recognition of an ending from where it, where it goes to ending, you know high, high bluff end. We call it ending of a high bluff or a high hill. Ending to that portion and it recourse back into, into different directions. That's Isuliumaniq. So, right under that is a sod house, old. Then we went and we found out we go right up and look down there one time. We looked at it and there it was with a little door way, entrance way and a fancy...From top we went down and look at it, and sure enough there was a one of those stumps. That end portion of it, it was an old sod house. Bill: That's Y there.

Arnold: But under that, I went back into the history that this old fellow named Nasuŋuluk. Wendy: Nasuŋuluk? Arnold: Nasuŋuluk. I name my oldest son after him because he's a very old man. My dad referred to him as an older, elderly person when he came here. So when dad died, he was still alive. So he has memory, good memory of telling stories as to what was up there. He mentioned that quite a few times, and to be an area for people grouped together. Wendy: This is... Arnold: Site location must have been a good navigational, ah high mound ah, he mentioned that quite a few times. And that they wintered there with groups of people and earlier people had been there too. And I looked again on that kind of an edge way on the bottom and walked that, and we find those steps again. Looked like there were more than one. Ah, we never get curious enough to scout more than, more, I mean look for more. But we were positive, me and Emily, that we saw those where I can't fancy things were man made. Looked like for those tents. Bill: So it was the willow. Arnold: What's inside those. Bill: Support? Arnold: And numerous of those were down there visible; a good many of them. So that, I would say, may have some merit for historic evidence of people if you was...looking for some evidence. Bill: Right. Wendy: Now you heard about this from Nasuŋuluk or from your father? Arnold: Yah. Nasuŋuluk. Wendy: Or from your dad, from him. Arnold: Nasuŋuluk was at Alaqtaq when I get to know him. Where's Alaqtaq? Right here, right here. That's where I get to know him. That because it was, this was a area where I was introduced to the reindeer herd. Bill: Did Nasuŋuluk say that was a gathering place? Arnold: Yah, more than once he mentioned that to be. He was involved in his younger, earlier days to be up there himself and he talk about his dogs, how the wolf would mingle and take, maybe he lost his dog and then he'd come back. See if they mingle with wolf.... These stories were inherited. They claimed this happened in, when he was in that area. Bill: Would they gather at any particular time of the year? Arnold: Yah, right in the area yah, yah. Bill: What time... (End of side A.) Bill: All right. Arnold: One winter, he mentioned, one winter. But he mentioned that was also a gathering area for subsistence type of a living, being a good land mark. And also right where Charlie was, there's some campsites, on, not campsites, but leaving of a... Bill: Chipp 10? Arnold: People before our time, and we, ah, saw them. Now further up in there, not too far from here, it is this end, okay? Bill: Uh huh. Arnold: We call it another end, but this one goes down. Bill: Z-2? Arnold: And before it's a landmark with one of those. It's a Blueberry Hill. We call it a Blueberry Hill in Eskimo. Bill: Oh, what would that be? Wendy: Asiaq something. Arnold: Paunġaq. Wendy: Paunġaq? Arnold: Paunġaq. Wendy: Okay. Bill: That Z-2. Arnold: You look at it from the air it's purple in summer. It be purple. It's a really good blueberry area. Ah, right here has to be a stream but I think it's part of this. Right at the inside of that stream my wife and the kids was looking in there, and they, again, found in that objects that looked like they were man-made. Looked like this were old sod houses probably one time, but they collapsed and fall into that type of, of a... Bill: That's the stream flowing in right here at Z-2. Wendy: Okay Arnold: It's just a..it's on a high, that thing is way down inside and we usually go in there and pick berries. And that's how we run around in there,and they'd find these. So it is kind of interesting. It look like just, ah, a place where they kind of had a little waterfall where they could get water and on one side was way down where they could drop all of their, whatever they don't want. It's, kind of a cute little area where you have water on one side and a big drop on the other. And on top of on that kind of a Y shape, on top was a flat where they were. Looked like it's a very attractive caribou hunting site. Because when the caribou was running through that gully, all you had to do is... Bill: Did you find any caribou bone there? Arnold: Uh, no. Emily: Underneath the hill. Arnold: Huh? Emily: Underneath the hill we saw them. Arnold: Underneath the hill? Caribou leavings and stuff? I didn't look that close, but this the things we saw. Bill: Yah, is there a name for that place? Arnold: Ah, not specifically there, but this one we call it after my uncle, Ahsoak (Asuaq). Wendy: Ahsoak.

Bill: That's Z-2? Arnold: This one Z-2. I think that's what Charlie gave you. Bill: Yes. Yes Ahsoak's (Asuaq) camp and good berry spot. Yah. Arnold: Ahsoak (Asuaq). And that's the only recognition we got on this one, and ah, where they go to following the Chipp River going up. I haven't seen too much here, but... Bill: Is this the Chipp or the Ikpikpak? Arnold: Ikpikpak. They call it Ikpikpak. This is Ikpikpak here all the way. This one, they call it Ikpikpak. This one they call it Ikpikpagruaq. Bill: So the Chipp is the Ikpikpak. Arnold: Ikpikpak without the -ruaq. Bill: Right. Arnold: Ikpikpagruaq is this one, from here on down. Bill: What the map says is the Ikpikpak. Arnold: The Ikpikpak is, it's all those Ikpikpagruaq, R-U-A-Q. Bill: That extends all the way to... Arnold: To here, to the Y. Bill: To the junction with the Alaqtaq? Arnold: No, wait a minute, up to here. Bill: Oh it goes beyond the junction with the Alaqtaq up to... Arnold: Up to this Y. Bill: To the junction with the Ikpikpak. Arnold: Yeah. Bill: Okay. Arnold: This one Alaqtaq is (yawning?) right here. Bill: Yes. Wendy: What does that -ruaq ending mean? Arnold: Big. Emily: Bigger. Wendy: Bigger okay. Arnold: Ikpikpak means big cliff river, but Ikpikpagruaq means much bigger, bigger. Wendy: Bigger cliff river. Arnold: Yah, it's making it bigger. So, -ruaq means bigger. Ikpikpak means big cliff river, but Ikpikpagruaq means bigger than this one. Emily: (Unintel.) Arnold: Yah? No, I think the river drainage for that purpose. Yah, maybe. Because right here, right here about mile, mile wide in the areas for up to here, it's pretty wide, but no water, hardly any water. So the main course of the current goes through here. Emily: Our family stayed way up there one year, one whole year. 193- (unclear) I was only ten years old then. Arnold: We going back, back further up. I'm only following this one I ended up here to be a campsite because this is a very strong uh, indication of older campsite, right here. Charlie must have put it way over here, but this is a identification of a name. Charlie... this one its a Uġvik. Means that a place where you upside down the boat and lean it right against anything, Uġvik. The name means where you lean to. But it's a real high about 150 feet, maybe high. Landmark, where it's got kind of a flat square and by itself small, small hill. Bill: And where's the other place you mentioned there? Arnold: It's right by the, by the river itself. The river, river itself. Bill: Okay. Arnold: Where some older landmarks of man made objects again for similar things I'm telling you or... Bill: We'll call that AB-13. Arnold: I think I would say nomadic groups of people that travel a lot may have been there quite a few times. By what actually I see, and I don't know, I never pay too much attention here, but I have to go back here. Wendy: Is there a name for this Arnold? I'm sorry I was writing. Is there a name for that particular spot? Arnold: Uh, the identification is that high... Wendy: Okay. Arnold: Uġvik. Wendy: It's part of Uġvik too. Okay. Arnold: It's identification that river is old. Wendy: Okay. Arnold: Okay, that's where I shot the caribou one time. Right straight across to the river okay. Bill: Okay. Arnold: Followed it back out. Now that, that's a storage shack. Bill: Okay.

Arnold: Yah, but it's on this side. There's some old cellars, and that has been at numerous times, and I think it's very old sign, a very old sign. This is a famous name. Emily: What's the name. Arnold: That's Akiqpak. Emily: Yah, that's where we were one whole year. Arnold: You was around it somewhere but not here; this is the stream. Bill: Akiqpak. Emily: (Unintel) Wendy: Charlie gave us that one too, that name too. Bill: Is there a story behind that name? Arnold: It's a wintering and a subsistence living area for, as far as we know. There's always people there, living there from....I don't know how far back the story goes into it. But one of the best places for winter survival and fall subsistence hunting for caribou and fish and everything. Bill: But the site is on the north side of the river there? Arnold: Yah, the site is on the north side. Bill: Of the small creek that comes in? Arnold : I never see too much on this side. I may be wrong, but the high portion is on, on the south side. But the attractive area where there was some caribou fawns, inside the ground, where sticking out looked like some type of framework, are located on the north side of that. Bill: And you've camped up there, too, huh? Emily: Yes, during that time there were several families. Arnold: But he, his father says they camp right near it but somewhere maybe on the better side where they can, you know, but not directly there, but maybe a mile or so, maybe less. In that vicinity. I, ah, going back over into here, there's this place. I'm lost here (unintel.)..... it's ending there, I thought this might be an.... Bill: I've got a map underneath here. Wendy: Here's the next one. It's right here. Let me give you back your pictures so we don't drop them. Bill: Let's fold this one maybe. Wendy: That'll make it easier to see.

Bill: Let's do a check here while we.... Back on. The second map. Arnold: Now this is not a Simiutaq Bend. This is Qaglugiksauraq. Bill: This is R. Arnold: It's a real deep portion. They call it real deep portion of the river in Chipp River where there's deep, I don't know what you call it, eddy type? Real deep portion of the river on a bend where it digs in there and becomes real deep. Wendy: Can you say that name again for us? Arnold: Qaglugiksauraq. Wendy: Qaglugiksauraq? Bill: Is that right there? Arnold: Right there. Bill: That's R. Arnold: There were some. I stopped there to look for a old campsite that used to be there. There were frameworks and other types of a, of a indication of people that had lived there some years back, you know. I don't know just exactly how far back they would go. So, there was some old framework in there made of logs, split logs. But ah, when I went back up there about two years ago, I stopped there with my whole family, and we looked all over for those and again the erosion had come to over beyond 50 feet of I, of what I had suspected and they had gone. But I actually see those when I traveled by dog team in earlier years. So again the river had eaten, away most of that portion and changed all of the... Bill: Are there any signs of the old camp there? Arnold: Uh, we beached here and walked this place just as though my children, the historic site that used to be there. We didn't find it. We didn't find it. So that's gone. But it's just a story now that I've seen that, maybe some areas where...I don't know. Bill: Do people still fish at that place? Arnold: Uh, not today. It is a very good fishing area. It's a distance. We retrieving back side of follow the river because on the seismic down here, they destroyed so much of the fish here, we go retrieving back to on the better area for fishing, each year. We haven't gone that far, but we, I know by my experience where to go. If I don't catch it down there, and my supplies for the winter is too low, I would have to go someplace else to get it. Before, but during the course of the runnings there and you realize you don't get it, sometimes you missed out. And it's just bad luck, tough luck, that's all. You missed out, you missed out. So this is one of them. Simiutaq is right here. Bill: I? Arnold: Simiutaq (unclear) words. It's not, (unclear) it's right here. Simiutaq is right here. Let's see now, I got to go back here. This cliff and this cliff real close. They're not that far. They (unclear) way over there. They, they're real close not. They're kind of a dangerous kind of a try to get up there and do it at night. (Unclear) get on there 400 maybe 300 feet drop on either side to try to get through there. They say it's a very dangerous place. Bill: Did we mark that down farther do you think? Arnold: Not too far. I think you're right on the spot. The (unintel.) is right on top, it's right on top. Wendy: Is there, is there a historic site there? Arnold: It used to be. It's one of the landmarks that are there. Well-known people brag about it being there and it's a little canyon with ah......You get there in summer. I think you know exactly what I mean, but it's a very good area for fishing, and it got rocks and others. I figured people have transported from here same type (unclear). From this portion, the rocks I saw down here, I match them up to here. So, if they had to come from here. Bill: So you think they took the rocks from up upriver? Arnold: From here to the historic site for same purpose to use it on their campsite. I don't know exactly how to put it but when we got down there... it materialized when you stamped the ground, you know? Bill: Yah, sure. Arnold: Some good size rocks that looked like (unclear) weights. (unclear) Wendy: So they're a kind of rock that you wouldn't normally find down here. Arnold: Looked like it had been transported from here by earlier groups of people. Emily: Yes. Same kind of rocks that we see. Arnold: Had to come from here, this areas. So starting from this point, the structure of the river started to change. So, I have not get the history of this one, other than the Price River. Price, let me go back up here, okay? Wendy: Is that it right there? Bill: Yeah, here's Price River. Arnold: Price River has been indication of stopping point too for earlier without any other evidence of... I never find any evidence, of maybe that have been washed away or dropped but this... Like this older group, like the ones I listen to that comes from this area here. Bill: This camp? From Smith Bay? Arnold: Yah, I stay here quite a lot during time and he tell us all about this area that being stopping point for people going out to get some caribou skins, clothing, and other (unclear)... Bill: The Price River? Arnold: Yeah, fall and then they'd go, but stopping place was also Price River and they claim it had a high, high spot on the east side of the river and down on the north side of the Price River. That, right there on top, followed this high bank all the way up to certain areas but I see no... Bill: No signs. Arnold: No sign of anything that may have been a landmark. Maybe I may have, I didn't, I wasn't that curious to look anyhow. But I, if they were visible I would have.

Bill: What did he mean by a stopping place? Arnold: Well, whenever they go subsistence hunting for clothing in this area. Some of them go by boat and dog team, dog power, let me put it that way. And the whole groups of them would be up there and they would go so far. And that was one of the areas for the targeted area, because that time the caribous migrating in fall, used to follow this Price River and swung over this way. That's the pattern. The caribou traveled in that pattern. Uh, if they didn't follow that pattern, they'd go on the upper side of it, and go just above Simiutaq through here and cross here, and continue in that direction. So we observed those caribou. Females go on this side and a good majority of the bulls would go on a short cut. Bill: So that Price River was a place that people knew that the caribou would be coming through. Arnold: Oh yeah, in fall migration. Bill: So people would go up from Smith Bay. Arnold: All the way in that area to hunt for winter, winter clothing. Bill: In fall? Arnold: In the fall somewhere around August, they started around in August, and then they....This area for that stuff had a tremendous impact on this subsistence hunting here for clothing. Caribou because caribou in fall migrate this way. Bill: Oh, okay. Arnold: So that's the point. Bill: The caribou are migrating to the west? Arnold: West, west. Bill: Across the plain? Arnold: Right around, we call it the Tasiqpak River. I'm very much experienced on Tasiqpak River, I'm expecting them to go back home now. They are coming back from areas here where those herds will be crossing right through here and then heading back in this area, they gonna stay right here. Bill: Heading back to the east just below Tasiqpak Lake? Arnold: They go right in that area. Fawn there and then mosquitoes, probably gonna go down there again. They repeat the same course. Bill: So they do their fawning there to the east of the Ikpikpak, just south of Tasikpak Lake. And then the mosquitoes drive them north? Arnold: And that's where you see most of them too, yeah. That's the way they were with our reindeer herd, we shoved them along. Try to keep them away from mingling with our reindeer herd. Bill: Sure.

Arnold: Now I'm trying to, I better not guess any, but I sure would like maybe Jonah Leavitt to identify one of the main historic sites that I always want to see and haven't found yet. But it's a, a story. Actually them people that lives in Cape Halkett and in the Pitt Point area and Qalluvik had a...and these people used to live there, go through here and roam this area. We meet them there. Bill: Oh, you meet them? Arnold: And they the ones should put the historic area on this side. It has a a tremendous impact of historical site here. For some wintering areas and some summering areas for... Bill: Just to the south of Tasiqpak Lake? Arnold: Yeah, because they that older group I heard. That man I heard over there, just story teller, tell us all about how they herd the reind-... ah, caribou and then kill them and use them for subsistence, put away. This also had some tremendous story here, because this is a also one of the areas where they butcher a lot of caribou. Because once the caribou get in here, they could just drive them out into water and then butcher them. These areas had some that have to come here from Jonah Leavitt and maybe Noah Itta and a..., some (unclear). They're people that I met up there who used to walk a lot and passed away. Kind of a pitiful...Just recently we lost one with a homesite here just passed away too. I deal with them right in that area. We discussed, we discussed the area of fishing for subsistence, just in case something don't break up. We know all these lakes that have fish in them. Now coming back into that. Where's my camp? (Pause) I think this is the lake. This is a sod house. Bill: We'll call that AB-14? Is it 14? Wendy: Uh-huh. Arnold: And ah, that's a wintering area for some families that I know long time ago, and they seem to inherit the knowledge of where to go. They got an instinct of going there. So, they may have been some history related back to, to the subsistence area here. Wintering is a lotta fish, all kinds of fish, mainly pikes, grayling, trout, lake trout, whitefish ah, those great big ah, what you call those Tittaaliq. Bill: Ling Cod. Is that what they call it? Arnold: Burbot they call them, burbot. Wendy: Burbot? Arnold: Yeah, something like that, big ones and other species of fish in that lake.

Wendy: Do you recall any names of any of the families that used to winter there? Arnold: The last one I know is Kiulliq's father. Emily: Eqowa. (Igauġaq). Arnold: Egowa, Egowa his wife and their son. Bill: Is there a name for that lake? Arnold: Now I'm lost. Emily: At the end of that little river Arnold: Huh? Emily: At the end of that little river. Arnold: Aumaliuraq. This river is Aumaliuraq, means small. This is Aumalik. This is Aumalik. And this is little river of the same name but like Ikpikpak and Ikpikpugruak. Wendy: Right. Arnold: Aumalik means a place where there's some, what do you...,when the coal is red hot, what do you call that? Wendy: When a coal? Arnold: Coal, burning coals Wendy: A glowing coal? Arnold: Glowing yah, it means that's the name of that, and where... Emily: Does that mean there's some coal around there? Arnold: Oh yeah, there's a lot of coal in there. Bill: But is there a stream that comes in here that you were talking about? Arnold: Here? Wendy: Uh-huh. Arnold: Yeah, there is the river. Bill: Oh, okay. Wendy: Oh Aumaliuraq. Emily: Aumaliuraq. Arnold: Aumaliuraq, see this here. This is it coming up. Emily: From our place? Arnold: Yah, they go full speed up there with a boat. Up to a certain area. That's a good small stream. Goes all the way through in there, comes back out here and then goes into that lake. Bill: So you call that Aumaliuraq. Arnold: Aumaliuraq river. And Aumalik that's where Tittaaliq. Tittaaliq is way up there. This is Aumalik River. This is the Qasrauġaġvik that goes all the way to somewhere down here. Wendy: Where does the Aumaliuraq start? Can you point that out for us? Oh, it starts right there at....and Chipp 9. Arnold: That's part of my stream. Bill: Why don't you go ahead and mark that in, I think Arnold. If you don't mind. Arnold: That's the starting point of that Aumaliuraq River. Bill: Okay, at Chipp 9? (Pause) Arnold: (Unclear) Yeah, see it. I'm trying to connect it to the other (unintel.). Here it is right here. Bill: Okay? Wendy: Okay. Bill: And you call that Aumaliuraq. That's the stream that's flowing into AB-14. Arnold: From that stream. Family member: Is that that little river bar? Arnold: I don't want to guess that this... but I walk this here up to a certain area. It's a bad walking area. Wendy: Wet? Arnold: No, it's high and those niggerheads are, you almost break your ankle everytime you try to do something. Too much of that. So I limit my travel in that area in summer. I travel it during the winter, but the winter time I found mammoth tusks, mammoth bones in here. Bill: At that point there? Arnold: Somewhere, yeah. There were some mammoth. Pretty near skeleton of mammoth hip bones and others in that area, and lots of musk ox heads, lots of musk ox heads. Bill: Was there any sign that the musk ox had been butchered? Any signs that the bones were cut? Arnold: There are areas where I thought were butchered, cause heck they can't just die in a group together like that. Because the heads of the musk ox is left intact sometimes in one group, in one area. I, you look at them....I don't think the wolves could have killed them off in that area. May have been killed off, for some foolish reason. I don't know what reason. So, there's some areas where you would run into a musk ox head or skeleton. I even found than in right next to the river. And they are unusual area where skeletons are found in further it seems.